warm up in secondary? why not just warm it up in the primary vessel? that's what I did last time around for a d-rest.My primary 1/2 to 2/3 reduction in OG is done in a week.I also pitch a metric buttload of yeast.Start cold, pitch cold, warm up in secondary.Standard German procedure.Have a listen to Dan Gordon show on lagering at TBN.
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Hey Lagerheads...
#21
Posted 06 November 2009 - 06:15 AM
#22
Posted 06 November 2009 - 06:24 AM
I normally get it closer to 60° at the end of primary for the d-rest also. I thought I read or heard that it would be better to warm up the primary because all of the yeast was in there to clean up. But this is why we discuss all of this... to get other angles.warm up in secondary? why not just warm it up in the primary vessel? that's what I did last time around for a d-rest.
#23
Posted 06 November 2009 - 06:33 AM
well - I wouldn't be surprised if there is enough yeast in secondary as well and maybe it's better not to heat up all of the yeast that's settled out at the bottom of the primary vessel?one thing I always like to do is to cold crash after I transfer though b/c I figure if I introduced any bugs they won't do much if the beer stays chilled.I normally get it closer to 60° at the end of primary for the d-rest also. I thought I read or heard that it would be better to warm up the primary because all of the yeast was in there to clean up. But this is why we discuss all of this... to get other angles.
#24
Posted 06 November 2009 - 09:47 AM
To each their own, I'm definitely not going to say that the Germans have it wrong! I'm just saying that on my system, this method works and produces some great beer. I've listened to all the dan gordon shows, brew strong on lagering etc. I'm well informed on methods, and I've found that this works well for me. Like I said, every person's method and systems are different. I'm glad that works for you.My primary 1/2 to 2/3 reduction in OG is done in a week.I also pitch a metric buttload of yeast.Start cold, pitch cold, warm up in secondary.Standard German procedure.Have a listen to Dan Gordon show on lagering at TBN.
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#25
*_Guest_Matt C_*
Posted 08 November 2009 - 04:05 PM
I lager in a secondary carboy most of the time. Lately Its been in the keg cause I'm lazy. I normally lager ,depending on the OG, for about a month in the 30 degrees temps.And usually they are uncarbed too. I also think some beers reach a peak flavor point sooner that others. Too many varibles in that last thought though. My best advice is to constantly taste you lagering beer...big believer in that.There have been a few lager threads lately and there have been some comments about how long it takes to make lagers. I want to throw this question out there... once primary is done, what is your "lager" process? Lager in a secondary, in a keg, uncarbed, carbed, etc? Along with that, I want to know what your experience is with lagers that are stored cold for a short time and for a long time. I ask this because I have had gold lagers sitting in cold secondary or a keg for 2-3 months at 35° and I've also had similar beers sit for only 2-3 weeks and I really see no difference. In 2008, I made my Oktoberfest Lager in March and stored it cold for 5+ months before busting it out in late September. It was good, but this year I made my Oktober later (July?) and it lagered for only 3-4 weeks and it was exceptionally good. Is it just me or does long-term lagering contribute less than we think?
#26
Posted 08 November 2009 - 08:28 PM
#27
Posted 09 November 2009 - 07:08 AM
I also think some beers reach a peak flavor point sooner that others.
Yeah, these statements make a lot of sense to me. I should also mention that most of my lagers are in the 4.5% to 5.5% range so we're not talking about giant lagers here. I made a nice BoPils on Thursday of this past week (11/5) and it's already just about done. I may only leave it in primary for a week, grab the yeast and make another beer.The differences are subtle. I will admit that some beers have benefited from time but many have lost the "edge" after just a couple weeks lagering.
#28
Posted 09 November 2009 - 08:48 AM
One can transfer it and drop out the yeast. Supposedly lower chance of autolysis. But autolysis is really low at lager temps.That's what I did with my Samiclaus last year.This year's O-fest was a 2 week ferment in the same kegs."Secondary" now just refers to raising the temp for week #2 and getting a D-rest out of it as well.It tasted so good and was so easy, This years Samiclaus is following that same plan.Just finished yesterday and lagering at 52°F as we speak.I'll keep you updated.warm up in secondary? why not just warm it up in the primary vessel? that's what I did last time around for a d-rest.
#29
Posted 09 November 2009 - 10:28 AM
Do you always lager at 52?One can transfer it and drop out the yeast. Supposedly lower chance of autolysis. But autolysis is really low at lager temps.That's what I did with my Samiclaus last year.This year's O-fest was a 2 week ferment in the same kegs."Secondary" now just refers to raising the temp for week #2 and getting a D-rest out of it as well.It tasted so good and was so easy, This years Samiclaus is following that same plan.Just finished yesterday and lagering at 52°F as we speak.I'll keep you updated.
#30
Posted 09 November 2009 - 11:13 AM
#31
Posted 09 November 2009 - 11:15 AM
cooler and longer lagering allegedly creates a smoother end product. I can neither confirm nor deny this.I remember seeing something about lagers aging quicker at higher temps which would suggest that you would have to lager a lager for shorter time if the temp was warmer and longer if the temp was lower. I suppose that all beer ages quicker at warmer temps anyway so I'm shrugging now. I don't suppose that lagering a beer at 55° is doing the same thing as storing it at 35°.
#32
Posted 09 November 2009 - 11:34 AM
Right, my point being more that 52 seems like cold conditioning (think alt and kolsch) as opposed to lagering, since 52 is actually a primary ferment temp for a lager. I think for our purposes lagering is meant to mean close to freezing as possible sometimes sub 32. I think the temperature difference would likely precipitate different particles and result in a different end result. How substantial is subjective.I remember seeing something about lagers aging quicker at higher temps which would suggest that you would have to lager a lager for shorter time if the temp was warmer and longer if the temp was lower. I suppose that all beer ages quicker at warmer temps anyway so I'm shrugging now. I don't suppose that lagering a beer at 55° is doing the same thing as storing it at 35°.
#33
Posted 09 November 2009 - 05:56 PM
You got it! Higher grav and high SRM beers benefit from a little aging (up to a month) but there is no calculated reason that a beer with lager yeast should sit longer than an ale as long as it's flocced out and clear.So what is the long lagering process supposed to achieve? Clearer beers only, or is there some supposed fermentation that's happening? If it's just clearer beers, then you'd think modern science (i.e. gelatin, finings, modified yeasts, etc.) would have eliminated the requirement for lagering.
#34
*_Guest_Matt C_*
Posted 09 November 2009 - 08:25 PM
I not sure the cooler and longer theory creates a smoother end product. the lagers are already supposed to be smooth by their very nature. I think the idea is: by lagering near freezing the yeast and haze etc. will clear faster than than a warmer lagering. By the same token, all beers benefit with aging even weizenbiers to some extent.cooler and longer lagering allegedly creates a smoother end product. I can neither confirm nor deny this.
#35
*_Guest_Matt C_*
Posted 09 November 2009 - 08:25 PM
Exactly +1You got it! Higher grav and high SRM beers benefit from a little aging (up to a month) but there is no calculated reason that a beer with lager yeast should sit longer than an ale as long as it's flocced out and clear.
#36
Posted 14 November 2009 - 12:51 PM
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