35 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

There have been a few lager threads lately and there have been some comments about how long it takes to make lagers. I want to throw this question out there... once primary is done, what is your "lager" process? Lager in a secondary, in a keg, uncarbed, carbed, etc? Along with that, I want to know what your experience is with lagers that are stored cold for a short time and for a long time. I ask this because I have had gold lagers sitting in cold secondary or a keg for 2-3 months at 35° and I've also had similar beers sit for only 2-3 weeks and I really see no difference. In 2008, I made my Oktoberfest Lager in March and stored it cold for 5+ months before busting it out in late September. It was good, but this year I made my Oktober later (July?) and it lagered for only 3-4 weeks and it was exceptionally good. Is it just me or does long-term lagering contribute less than we think?

[harryfrog]

I've only made the one oktoberfest so far...it sat on the yeast for 6 weeks at 45 degrees, then I cooled it to 34 for 2 days, kegged it, let it carb for 2 weeks in the serving fridge at 36 degrees (while I was on vacation), came back and starting drinking it and it is fantastic. It's now been in the serving fridge for 6 weeks and I can't say I notice any difference.

[Slainte]

The only difference between my ale brewing and lager brewing is yeast pitching rate and temperature.I see no reason to incorporate any lagering step. After primary (usually 2 weeks or so), I chill down to 33 F and hit it with gelatin. It goes into a keg a few days later clear, and remains cold and dark (about 38 F) for the rest of it's lifetime. No secondary or lagering step really needed. If anything needs aging, I can let it age in the kegerator. But usually most beers are best fresh. Especially BoPils.But I think having clear beer is the key to drinking beer when it's fresher. Yeast haze dampens hop character and other flavors, and generally doesn't taste very good.

[Big Nake]

I'm sure that this talk is making some old, dead German brewmeisters turn in their copper-colored graves. I would agree with Slainte that if the primary process was done properly (pitched a good amount of healthy yeast into well-oxygenated wort that is 45-50° and kept the primary temps cool and consistent), aging a lager for the same amount of time as an ale may be sufficient. I don't want to start a kerfuffel between short & long-term lagerers (there's an idea for a new TV show!), but I don't think my tastebuds can pick up the subtle improvement that months of lagering is supposed to bring to lagers. I also agree that yeast haze detracts from enjoying the beer.

[Slainte]

I'm sure that this talk is making some old, dead German brewmeisters turn in their copper-colored graves.

The funny thing is, my good friend went to Siebel last fall, and he came back with stories of fermentation measured in days, and huge filter rooms. You would be hard pressed to find breweries doing significant lagering steps. Nowadays, at least.

[Big Nake]

The funny thing is, my good friend went to Siebel last fall, and he came back with stories of fermentation measured in days, and huge filter rooms. You would be hard pressed to find breweries doing significant lagering steps. Nowadays, at least.

I've heard some things about how commercial breweries and even advanced homebrewers will do a complete lager primary in 4-5 days, but I thought there were still some traditional breweries who lagered there beer longer. I remember seeing (somewhere) that some German and Czech breweries lager their beers for 90 days and that was compared to something American like Bud who only lagers their beer for 20 days. Btw... when I talk about my lagers and the fact that I don't really detect a big difference between 3-4 weeks and 3-4 months, I'm talking about lagers in all styles... bocks, Czech Lagers, Oktobers, Viennas, Helles, American Standards, Red Lagers, etc. Cheers!

[ncbeerbrewer]

I have definitely not brewed as many lagers as ales but I still have lager aged the lagers each time. I have normally tried to hit around 45 days after transfer. I keg all my beers when they are lagered and its in the big chest freezer that is held at around 35 degrees. I brewed 10 gallons of my Ofest back in Aug hoping to having it ready for October. The first 5 gallons is gone and tasted great. The second 5 gallons is still lagering and I have just recently debated when I should carb it and put on tap. Since I brew so many ales I normally just figure to lager age my beers since they are going to need to wait to get on tap anyways too. I also don't carb up any of my beers until I have a keg ready and its going on tap too. I will be eager to see if there is any taste difference in my Ofest. I will have to report back but I won't expect it to be either. I agree that many commerical breweries definitely do not lager beers for extended months and months time even for lagers. Yes the fermentation takes longer than ales but we know for them its all about $$$$ and time too. I wouldn't put it past a brewery to lager for 1-2 weeks tops and get the beer moved out from there.

[Stout_fan]

My O fest was spectacular. It was a two week ferment and spent a 6 months in the wine cellar. I guess you could call that lagering, but it should be 10 degrees cooler.The biggest advantage to two weeks?I want my lagering fridge back!

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I've only made one lager (O'fest) but here's what I did: primary for 3 weeks, move to secondary and cold crash for a couple months, then I kegged it and carbed it up. I tried a little (was good) and then took it off the taps and it's still kegged in my basement fridge (brought it out for an O'fest gathering I had about a month ago - I think people liked it???). I'm not sure if the aging has changed it but I suspect that a couple months of lagering is plenty for most regular strength lager beers.

[harryfrog]

So what is the long lagering process supposed to achieve? Clearer beers only, or is there some supposed fermentation that's happening? If it's just clearer beers, then you'd think modern science (i.e. gelatin, finings, modified yeasts, etc.) would have eliminated the requirement for lagering.

[Big Nake]

No, I think it's supposed to add smoothness to the beer and I believe it's also supposed to allow the lager yeast to continually work on cleaning up flavors that only lager yeasts produce. I agree that modern filtering techniques would trump any clarity issues that had to be dealt with. Maybe I should have made this a poll question. How long do you lager your lagers?a] 2 weeksb] 2 monthsc] 6 monthsd] what's a lager?e] no pants

[stellarbrew]

I'm pretty new at brewing lagers. But with the few lagers I have brewed, the beer doesn't really seem to taste noticeably better after 6 or 8 weeks of lagering, than the way it tasted after two weeks of lagering. Definitely it gets clearer, but that could be accomplished with filtering, as was mentioned.

[Humperdink]

All the lagers I have done I have followed the advice of lots of o2, cold pitch the yeast and maintain cool ferments. I couldn't tell a difference between 3 weeks of lagering (after 3.5-4 weeks in primary at ferm temps) and the 6 weeks at which the kegs went dry. My dad came over and demolished my helles.

[Big Nake]

Yeah, this seems to be the case with my lagers too. I'm not trying to get everybody to be lazy or impatient with their lagers, I just think that part of the reason that people don't try them is because they think that lagers are too complicated and take too much time. As Chris just said, it seems that if everything is done properly from the start, you could easily be enjoying a nice lager after just a couple weeks of lagering. But... I know that someone is going to come along and say this is blasphemous! Cheers gang.

[Humperdink]

Yeah, this seems to be the case with my lagers too. I'm not trying to get everybody to be lazy or impatient with their lagers, I just think that part of the reason that people don't try them is because they think that lagers are too complicated and take too much time. As Chris just said, it seems that if everything is done properly from the start, you could easily be enjoying a nice lager after just a couple weeks of lagering. But... I know that someone is going to come along and say this is blasphemous! Cheers gang.

Blasphemous=non-traditionalI've met people like this before. Everyone's palate, system and methods are different. If it works for you and you're getting quality beer from it, then you're doing it right. I've scored well on all of my lagers when judged, so what I'm doing on my system is obviously working and I see no point in slowing production for nominal improvements.

[Big Nake]

Blasphemous=non-traditionalI've met people like this before. Everyone's palate, system and methods are different. If it works for you and you're getting quality beer from it, then you're doing it right. I've scored well on all of my lagers when judged, so what I'm doing on my system is obviously working and I see no point in slowing production for nominal improvements.

There you go. That should be on a t-shirt, my friend.

[strangebrewer]

I've never pushed the timing on a lager since I don't brew many of them but I have on ales with no issues. The key every time has been a healthy fermentation. I am going to be taking that practice with me when making lagers and hopefully net the same results

[DaBearSox]

I will hopefully get into lagers after I get a little birthday money/gift certificates. I need to get another better bottle so that my ales dont take a time hit. Good thread for me though as I am impatient and I bottle condition.

[Humperdink]

I think the main thing is not rushing the time out of primary. The yeast won't autolyze that fast and clean up after themselves much faster IMO. Rather than going the two weeks primary, check gravity and move to secondary and long lager, give it more time in primary. The sulphur and other off flavors and compounds will diminish a lot before you lager, reducing required lagering time to make a clean lager beer.

[Stout_fan]

I think the main thing is not rushing the time out of primary. The yeast won't autolyze that fast and clean up after themselves much faster IMO. Rather than going the two weeks primary, check gravity and move to secondary and long lager, give it more time in primary. The sulphur and other off flavors and compounds will diminish a lot before you lager, reducing required lagering time to make a clean lager beer.

My primary 1/2 to 2/3 reduction in OG is done in a week.I also pitch a metric buttload of yeast.Start cold, pitch cold, warm up in secondary.Standard German procedure.Have a listen to Dan Gordon show on lagering at TBN.