34 replies to this topic

[neddles]

Try it with a lager! 

Have you done it? Standard 1L/1 yeast packet process and pitch?

[HVB]

So how often would you guys "shake" or swirl the flask? I know that before I had a stirplate I would go down to the bunker and just swirl it whenever the thought occurred to me. It might be every 30 minutes to only twice a day.

Once before you add the yest till the full flask is foam.  I usually shake a couple of minutes and that is it.

Have you done it? Standard 1L/1 yeast packet process and pitch?

Yes, I think every lager I have done except for one 10g batch that was a repitch was done this way.  Never had any issues.

[neddles]

So how often would you guys "shake" or swirl the flask? I know that before I had a stirplate I would go down to the bunker and just swirl it whenever the thought occurred to me. It might be every 30 minutes to only twice a day.

Because the 1L of wort is shaken to get O2 into it there is no continued oxidation of the starter wort because of the stirring that continues after yeast activity is done. Which means that when you pitch the whole starter (not decanted) theoretically it should taste better (if you can taste it at all) in the final beer. So shaking the 007 starter, if you do it, is about releasing CO2 out of the wort (for yeast health) as its fermenting not continued aeration. I try to do it occasionally but honestly I don't remember if shaking to release CO2 was a part of the process as outlined or if its just something we do because we can't leave it the feck alone. 

[denny]

Have you done it? Standard 1L/1 yeast packet process and pitch?

 

I've done it....no problem.

[neddles]

Drez and Denny, on these lager SNS starters... did you pitch a room temp SNS into cold lager wort? Or what?

[HVB]

Drez and Denny, on these lager SNS starters... did you pitch a room temp SNS into cold lager wort? Or what?

For me that is my SOP

Edited by drez77, 26 October 2016 - 04:17 PM.

[neddles]

So this, "dont pitch warm yeast into cold wort" may not be the beer ruining experience we were all taught? At least not at High Voltage Brewhaus?

ETA: Thank you.

Edited by neddles, 26 October 2016 - 05:10 PM.

[Genesee Ted]

So with this method scaled up, you would basically bump up oxygen every 12 hours or so to rouse yeast and keep in aerobic?

Should grow more cells. It would be interesting to see some DO measurements from labs on this practice

[neddles]

So with this method scaled up, you would basically bump up oxygen every 12 hours or so to rouse yeast and keep in aerobic?

Should grow more cells. It would be interesting to see some DO measurements from labs on this practice

No, if I am understanding you correctly. One dose of O2 coming from a vigorous shaking of the wort for 2 minutes with air. The ratio is supposed to be 1L wort : 4L vessel volume sealed and shaken 2 minutes to achieve the 8ppm possible with air. No further additions of air/O2. Pitch very viable and active yeast at high krausen.

[Big Nake]

This is all mildly amusing because years ago I used to make 1L starters with no stirplate and everyone would say that my starters were woefully small and would lead to low-quality beer... especially lagers. I kept telling everyone that my lagers were coming out very good with this practice. I eventually moved to a stirplate and larger starters, more DME, etc. and never really noticed any benefit... the yeast did seem to get active quicker but the quality of the beer didn't really change. Lately my lager practice is to make a 2L starter with about 7 ounces of DME, add some pure O2 from a canister and get it on the stirplate (room temp) and if the starter is active on brewday, I pitch the whole thing into well-oxygenated, 50° (or so) wort. If the starter gets active and then slows dowm, I will cold-crash it and decant some of it (I always feel like I'm tossing healthy yeast cells out when I pour from the flask) and then pitch it. Once I have a good, healthy colony of yeast (ale or lager), subsequent batches get fresh, just-harvested slurry into oxygenated wort. So I only make starters for about 25% of the lagers I make. The first run of ale yeast get a fresh, fully-inflated Wyeast packet without a starter and my ales are usually only 5% anyway.

[HVB]

This is all mildly amusing because years ago I used to make 1L starters with no stirplate and everyone would say that my starters were woefully small and would lead to low-quality beer... especially lagers. I kept telling everyone that my lagers were coming out very good with this practice. I eventually moved to a stirplate and larger starters, more DME, etc. and never really noticed any benefit... the yeast did seem to get active quicker but the quality of the beer didn't really change. Lately my lager practice is to make a 2L starter with about 7 ounces of DME, add some pure O2 from a canister and get it on the stirplate (room temp) and if the starter is active on brewday, I pitch the whole thing into well-oxygenated, 50° (or so) wort. If the starter gets active and then slows dowm, I will cold-crash it and decant some of it (I always feel like I'm tossing healthy yeast cells out when I pour from the flask) and then pitch it. Once I have a good, healthy colony of yeast (ale or lager), subsequent batches get fresh, just-harvested slurry into oxygenated wort. So I only make starters for about 25% of the lagers I make. The first run of ale yeast get a fresh, fully-inflated Wyeast packet without a starter and my ales are usually only 5% anyway.

IMO there is a difference here.  A 1L starter in a 1L flask is not the same as a 1l starter in a 4l flask where you shake it till it foams.

So this, "dont pitch warm yeast into cold wort" may not be the beer ruining experience we were all taught? At least not at High Voltage Brewhaus?

ETA: Thank you.

Yes at High Voltage Brewing we like to shock our yeast!

[neddles]

Yes at High Voltage Brewing we like to shock our yeast!

Nicely done!

[denny]

Drez and Denny, on these lager SNS starters... did you pitch a room temp SNS into cold lager wort? Or what?

 

I did.  Although I'm a proponent of colder yeast into warmer wort, in fact there didn't see to be any difference.

So with this method scaled up, you would basically bump up oxygen every 12 hours or so to rouse yeast and keep in aerobic?
 

 

I don't think so.  All O2 should come at the start.

This is all mildly amusing because years ago I used to make 1L starters with no stirplate and everyone would say that my starters were woefully small and would lead to low-quality beer... especially lagers. I kept telling everyone that my lagers were coming out very good with this practice. I eventually moved to a stirplate and larger starters, more DME, etc. and never really noticed any benefit... the yeast did seem to get active quicker but the quality of the beer didn't really change. Lately my lager practice is to make a 2L starter with about 7 ounces of DME, add some pure O2 from a canister and get it on the stirplate (room temp) and if the starter is active on brewday, I pitch the whole thing into well-oxygenated, 50° (or so) wort. If the starter gets active and then slows dowm, I will cold-crash it and decant some of it (I always feel like I'm tossing healthy yeast cells out when I pour from the flask) and then pitch it. Once I have a good, healthy colony of yeast (ale or lager), subsequent batches get fresh, just-harvested slurry into oxygenated wort. So I only make starters for about 25% of the lagers I make. The first run of ale yeast get a fresh, fully-inflated Wyeast packet without a starter and my ales are usually only 5% anyway.

 

If you listen to the podcast, I equate ut with "old school" starters.  It's not quite the same, though, since in the old days we did intermittent shaking and with SNS all of that is done at the beginning.

Nicely done!

 

My understanding is that it's not yeast shock.  It's a case of the yeast using the nutrients before they get into the wort.  But I have no real scientific evidence for that.

[HVB]

 

My understanding is that it's not yeast shock. 

 

My use of shock was a play on words for High Voltage Brewing.

[Brauer]

Even stirred starters are going to be best if the head space is greater than the liquid volume. That was established for cell cultures, as it improves gas exchange. Otherwise, oxygen delivery or CO2 removal is probably limiting.