66 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

I think people (myself included) were saying you had unnecessary transfers and extended aging time unprotected from oxidation. I get them in the keg asap then let my eyes and tastebuds determine their drinkability. Mine are usually at prime ~3weeks after kegged.

Makes sense. I have done some things to protect from O2 pickup including skipping secondary and going primary-to-keg but if I do need to use a secondary I can now purge it ahead of time which may not be magic but it should help.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

I feel like I have to work hard for clarity and one of my tools was to allow beer to sit cold in kegs and get it to clear naturally. But every now and then I hear someone tell me that I leave my beer sitting around too long and that I should drink it "fresher"... but something's gotta give. How can I drink a beer that went from grain to glass in 15 days and expect it to be clear too? I can't seem to do that.

I don't think that is unreasonable for ales. With a good pitch, fermentation should be complete within 7 days. Crash cool for a day. Gel for 2 days. Transfer to keg, carbonate, (I've been having much success lately with the 40 pounds for 12-24 hours).  Let rest for a few days and enjoy. 

[denny]

I just took a gravity sample from my Rye IPA and bottled it.  It's carbing now.  Brewed 6/2 and it's freaking crystal clear after 12 days.  It's been cold crashed since Sun., meaning 2 days ago.  I used both Brewtan and whirlfloc on it, no other finings.

Edited by denny, 14 June 2016 - 12:36 PM.

[positiveContact]

but how's it taste?

[HVB]

I just took a gravity sample from my Rye IPA and bottled it.  It's carbing now.  Brewed 6/2 and it's freaking crystal clear after 12 days.  It's been cold crashed since Sun., meaning 2 days ago.  I used both Brewtan and whirlfloc on it, no other finings.

Not going to fly in NE 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brauer]

The second part of that suggests that what you witnessed was specifically due to the trub, right? I say that because I wonder if something in your water composition had anything to do with it or some other part of your process that I do differently. You condition the malt (which was a part of the low-O2 paper) and you have a smaller sparge. Let me ask... how do you condition your malt? Something like 2-3 ounces of water sprayed on the malt prior to milling? Also, for a 5-gallon batch I might mash with 4.5 gallons and sparge with 3.5 gallons. There used to be some guidelines about mash consistency and those guidelines seem to have disappeared. If I used 8 gallons of water for a 5-gallon batch with 9-10 pounds of grain in it, how would you divide up the mash and sparge water? Could I go 6 gallons mash and 2 sparge? I used to do 4 and 4 and someone mentioned making the sparge smaller so how much could I adjust that by and what are the drawbacks, if any. I could cut down on tannins this way which would have an impact on clarity. Cheers and thanks.

I saw the biggest change in clarity with water treatment, but you do that too, so that doesn't seem to be sufficient for you, so I thought you might have another factor that is increasing tannin and leading to chill haze.

For conditioning, I use approximately 3 oz of water per 10 lbs., but I don't worry about being too exact. I try to add little enough water that it is all absorbed by the husks, so the grain isn't noticeably damp after a few minutes.

You can use as little sparge water as your system will allow. I seem to get the biggest benefit from no sparge. I think I get a pretty good approximation of "it" with no sparge, since removing husks from the mash, like some German breweries do to reduce tannin levels, isn't practical for me.

Yet I do none of that and have the same result. So is that procedure really the cause of the c;arity?

I think my water treatment has the biggest effect on clarity. I think those factors primarily improve flavor by reducing tannin levels. After all, Ken isn't doing any of those things, and is probably doing things very similarly to you, but he isn't getting clear beer. There is some unaccounted for variable that might be increasing his tannin extraction.

What change do you think he could make that would allow his beers to clear normally?

I suspect that malt conditioning is going to benefit me more than you, because you store your malt at ambient humidity, but my malt moulders under the humidity here, so I have to store my malt with dessicant.

too many variables to really compare I would think.

Exactly. We can really only suggest specific factors that we have found that might address the potential problem.

Edited by Brauer, 14 June 2016 - 04:42 PM.

[MyaCullen]

How do breweries remove husks from mashing??????

[Brauer]

How do breweries remove husks from mashing??????

I never looked into that, but I always pictured some kind of threshing machine.

[Big Nake]

Thanks for all of that Brauer. I do get clear beer but those beers are treated with gel solution and sit in kegs cold for x amount of time before I get good clarity. I could increase my mash water and decrease my sparge but the pot I use is only 5 gallons (I think...) so something would have to be addressed there. I do keep my sparge water in the 5 to 5.5 pH range so I should not be getting A LOT of unwanted tannin in my beer.

[Steve Urquell]

How do breweries remove husks from mashing??????

Noonan's new brewing lager says screens with holes big enough for the grist to fall thru but not big enough to allow the husks.

[Brauer]

Thanks for all of that Brauer. I do get clear beer but those beers are treated with gel solution and sit in kegs cold for x amount of time before I get good clarity. I could increase my mash water and decrease my sparge but the pot I use is only 5 gallons (I think...) so something would have to be addressed there. I do keep my sparge water in the 5 to 5.5 pH range so I should not be getting A LOT of unwanted tannin in my beer.

The size of your pot shouldn't matter. I heat up my first step, start the mash, then heat up the second step liquor. I don't try and heat all the water at once.

I was never satisfied with my tannin levels until I went No Sparge, but I find a lot of commercial beer overly tannic and I'm very critical of my own beer. It was fine for most Ales, where I was adding a lot of tannin from hops, anyway, or where it was hidden by Crystal Malt or roast, but it was interfering with the quality of the malt flavor in my simple grain bill Lagers. No Sparge got me the "it" I was looking for. This may have been aggrevated by the low gravity beer I make or the high efficiency of my tun, but I was surprised at how easy it was to detect the tannin in the sparge compared to the first runnings.

[Big Nake]

The size of your pot shouldn't matter. I heat up my first step, start the mash, then heat up the second step liquor. I don't try and heat all the water at once.

I do single infusion mashes and the pot I use to heat my mash water is only 5 gallons. I could use my 10-gal brew kettle but then I might consider using the propane burner to heat it since it's too big for the inside stove. Anyway, I measured out my water for a brewday tomorrow and I'll mash with 5 gallons (for about 9¼ lbs of grain) and sparge with three gallons. That's just a ½ gallon difference than usual so not a big change but if water-to-grain ratios have gone out the window, I may as well make my sparge as small as possible. Cheers.

[shaggaroo]

When you increase the mash volume, does your efficiency take a hit? I ask because I step-mashed yesterday and my efficiency tanked. I was not happy.

[Big Nake]

When you increase the mash volume, does your efficiency take a hit? I ask because I step-mashed yesterday and my efficiency tanked. I was not happy.

I honestly don't know because I don't keep track of efficiency anymore. I also don't know when "mash consistency" was no longer an issue. When I was a new AG brewer, I actually did TWO sparges. That's how I learned to do it. Someone eventually asked why and I said, "That's how I learned". Then I went to one. Maybe I should just mash the entire 8 gallons and get it over with. But... efficiency? Not sure how it's affected.

[denny]

When you increase the mash volume, does your efficiency take a hit? I ask because I step-mashed yesterday and my efficiency tanked. I was not happy.

 

If you mean mash ratio, no, it's the opposite.  My efficiency increased when I went to a higher ratio.

[MyaCullen]

When you increase the mash volume, does your efficiency take a hit? I ask because I step-mashed yesterday and my efficiency tanked. I was not happy.

was you're pre boil the same as normal?

[shaggaroo]

was you're pre boil the same as normal?

My pre-boil volume? Yes. When I do a single infusion, I start with 3.75 gal (that's all my small pot holds) for about 9-11 lbs of grist. "Mash" for an hour, start spare water heating at this point, vorlauf, drain, wait 15-20 mins for water to heat, dump in another 3.75 gal, then maybe another 1 gal after that. My efficiency consistently between 80-85%. Yesterday, 10.5 lb, I did a couple steps, mashed in at 99 (ferulic acid rest) with 3 gal (probably should have used less) added 1 gal boiling water to bring me to 122 (protein rest), and 1.5 gal boiling water to get me to 145. Then sparked with 3 gals. Efficiency tanked, right around 60%. Grrrrr

[MyaCullen]

Wow, when I've done steps I always start really low, 1:1, I suspect your mash was pretty diluted by the time you hit the amylase phase.

[shaggaroo]

Wow, when I've done steps I always start really low, 1:1, I suspect your mash was pretty diluted by the time you hit the amylase phase.

That's what I was thinking... But, I was at about 1.1:1?? 12 qts to 10.5 lbs. Live and learn. I boiled longer and ended up with 4 gal in the fermenter... so we'll see!

Edited by shaggaroo, 18 June 2016 - 03:15 PM.

[Steve Urquell]

That's what I was thinking... But, I was at about 1.1:1?? 12 qts to 10.5 lbs. Live and learn. I boiled longer and ended up with 4 gal in the fermenter... so we'll see!

My 3 step infusions start getting watery trying to hit the alpha if I have a big grain bill even when doughing in at 1:1. If I was dead set on that acid rest I'd prolly do a decoction for alpha to keep it from being too thin.

I've had lower than nml efficiency with highly proteinaceous malt if I forget to slice up the top before running off. Channels something fierce if it has a protein cap.