239 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

What is the purpose of the secondary for the majority of the beers you are making?

If I'm brewing a good amount of beer, it's a separate storing vessel. I have room for 4 kegs on draft and another 4 in the "on-deck" fridge. I try to "lager" my lagers for a good 8 weeks or so which means the on-deck fridge is going to be full and if I brew I would need a place to take the beer from primary. I have 8 good kegs (2 others need some help because they're leaking gas). Plus I like the idea of leaving the beer on the cool basement floor and clarifying. I could go directly from primary to keg but the timing would have to be just so and there would be a good amount of gunk in the keg as well and I really don't want to get into keg-to-keg transfers. I would have to give it some thought. You guys seem to turn your beers around much faster than I do so maybe I just need to rethink how I do things and skip that step. Now to sell the 6 or 8 Better Bottles I have.

EDIT: A clear beer sitting in a secondary is 48 hours away from being served (just needs to be chilled and carbed) so that's my "backup stash". When a keg goes down, one from the on-deck fridge goes into its place and the empty is immediately (ish) filled with one of the beers sitting in secondary. If I were to purge the secondaries, would that make them a little more acceptable?

[matt6150]

* Do you boil your mash and sparge water and chill it to strike temp? No
* Do you slowly add water and grains or do you pour water into the MT? I underlet into the MT and then slowly add grains while stirring.
* Do you use SMB in the mash to protect against oxidation? Still not sure what this is.
* Do you stir the mash slowly to avoid oxidation? Never given it a thought, stir as normal and then it recircs the entire mash time.
* Do you boil less-vigorously? I would say average boil 1.5gal/hr.
* Do you use an SS chiller because copper is supposedly oxidizing the wort? I do use a SS CFC, but it's because I think its purdy.
* Do you chill without stirring or stir slowly to avoid oxidation? Wort is whirlpooling for the entire chill process.
* Do you rack from kettle to primary slowly to avoid/reduce oxidation? No, as fast as gravity allows coming out of a 1/2" hose.

 

[djinkc]

* Do you boil your mash and sparge water and chill it to strike temp? Never considered such a thing
* Do you slowly add water and grains or do you pour water into the MT? Underlet only because my motor/mill setup fits on top of the cooler MT.
* Do you use SMB in the mash to protect against oxidation? No, I use a little for chloramine removal.  P or K - I would have to check
* Do you stir the mash slowly to avoid oxidation? Not a concern, stir to equalize temps and bust up any dough balls
* Do you boil less-vigorously? Moderate boil - that's what my electric kettle does
* Do you use an SS chiller because copper is supposedly oxidizing the wort? Plate chiller, so SS and copper brazing.  Never considered the issue
* Do you chill without stirring or stir slowly to avoid oxidation? Vigorous hand stir for a whirlpool - then PC
* Do you rack from kettle to primary slowly to avoid/reduce oxidation? No, the opposite

 

[neddles]

If I'm brewing a good amount of beer, it's a separate storing vessel. I have room for 4 kegs on draft and another 4 in the "on-deck" fridge. I try to "lager" my lagers for a good 8 weeks or so which means the on-deck fridge is going to be full and if I brew I would need a place to take the beer from primary. I have 8 good kegs (2 others need some help because they're leaking gas). Plus I like the idea of leaving the beer on the cool basement floor and clarifying. I could go directly from primary to keg but the timing would have to be just so and there would be a good amount of gunk in the keg as well and I really don't want to get into keg-to-keg transfers. I would have to give it some thought. You guys seem to turn your beers around much faster than I do so maybe I just need to rethink how I do things and skip that step. Now to sell the 6 or 8 Better Bottles I have.

EDIT: A clear beer sitting in a secondary is 48 hours away from being served (just needs to be chilled and carbed) so that's my "backup stash". When a keg goes down, one from the on-deck fridge goes into its place and the empty is immediately (ish) filled with one of the beers sitting in secondary. If I were to purge the secondaries, would that make them a little more acceptable?

So the solution sounds like a few more kegs and another backup fridge for your high output times of year.

[Big Nake]

So the solution sounds like a few more kegs and another backup fridge for your high output times of year.

I already have 4 fridges dedicated to brewing plus another one in the bar filled with beer.

[Brauer]

I try to "lager" my lagers for a good 8 weeks or so...

Cut that by half to 3/4 and you will probably reduce the effects of oxidation.

[matt6150]

I already have 4 fridges dedicated to brewing plus another one in the bar filled with beer.

Trade one out for a bigger one. A big chest freezer will fit lots of kegs.

[Brauer]

* Do you boil your mash and sparge water and chill it to strike temp? Maybe half the time, or close to it, if I get tied up with something else. I just let it cool passively, though.
* Do you slowly add water and grains or do you pour water into the MT? I pour.
* Do you use SMB in the mash to protect against oxidation? Sort of. I add metabisulfite to reduce oxidation by chloramine. (I don't think I'd ever seen it called SMB before last week).
* Do you stir the mash slowly to avoid oxidation? I don't whip it up. I just stir until it's mixed, which goes quickly since I mash thin.
* Do you boil less-vigorously? I go just to a rolling boil, just above a simmer. I try to get 0.75 gallons an hour.
* Do you use an SS chiller because copper is supposedly oxidizing the wort? Since I started doing hop stands, I often just finish the chill in an ice bath, which works pretty well on a 3.25 gallon batch.
* Do you chill without stirring or stir slowly to avoid oxidation? Sometimes I stir a bit, but I try not to churn it much while it is still warm.
* Do you rack from kettle to primary slowly to avoid/reduce oxidation? No, that's when I aerate.

[cavman]

* Do you boil your mash and sparge water and chill it to strike temp?hell no
* Do you slowly add water and grains or do you pour water into the MT? No
Do you use SMB in the mash to protect against oxidation?no
* Do you stir the mash slowly to avoid oxidation?no but I'm not splashing it around
* Do you boil less-vigorously?about 1 gallon boil off per hour
* Do you use an SS chiller because copper is supposedly oxidizing the wort?no copper*
Do you chill without stirring or stir slowly to avoid oxidation?* I stir but gently
Do you rack from kettle to primary slowly to avoid/reduce oxidation? No

[Steve Urquell]

Ken, I think you could dump a lot of O2 exposure by shortening your brewday to keg time and eliminating secondary. I know for a fact that my secondaried beers staled in the keg. Since I stopped that I haven't had a staled beer.

I looked at my last lager and it was ~5 weeks from brewday (probably 3.5-4 weeks brewday to keg)to carbed and drinking time but still needing a couple weeks before being great. But, it was no longer exposed to O2 sitting in primary or secondary.

My MO is. When ferm slows, unplug the chamber and let free rise to room temp. Let sit for ~1 week after it reaches 70F. If it tastes good--Crash to 32F until it drops clear. Keg with gel and start carbing. Lagering will take place in the keg.

[Big Nake]

Some interesting answers in here.

Ken, I think you could dump a lot of O2 exposure by shortening your brewday to keg time and eliminating secondary. I know for a fact that my secondaried beers staled in the keg. Since I stopped that I haven't had a staled beer.

I looked at my last lager and it was ~5 weeks from brewday (probably 3.5-4 weeks brewday to keg)to carbed and drinking time but still needing a couple weeks before being great. But, it was no longer exposed to O2 sitting in primary or secondary.

My MO is. When ferm slows, unplug the chamber and let free rise to room temp. Let sit for ~1 week after it reaches 70F. If it tastes good--Crash to 32F until it drops clear. Keg with gel and start carbing. Lagering will take place in the keg.

Yeah, I think I may have to shorten the time a little bit. I assume that plastic primaries and Better Bottles are going to allow some amount of O2 in eventually, right?

[Steve Urquell]

Some interesting answers in here.Yeah, I think I may have to shorten the time a little bit. I assume that plastic primaries and Better Bottles are going to allow some amount of O2 in eventually, right?

You probably get more doing the extra transfer than anything and probably very little thru the bottle wall but you also get O2 by diffusion thru the airlock.

[Big Nake]

You probably get more doing the extra transfer than anything and probably very little thru the bottle wall but you also get O2 by diffusion thru the airlock.

I admit that I am often drinking batches that were brewed months ago. I figure that a lager that's been cold in a keg that long is BETTER that way but it sounds like the long, cold lager phase is no longer thought of as it used to be. I guess I need to brew in a way where the beers will not wait as long to get to the taps. But if I have a beer in primary and it's done and I have no kegs available... what do I do? I should not have made that beer in the first place knowing that I wouldn't have a place to put it? I need to resolve the gas leaks in the 2 other kegs I have, probably and those can be stored warm if necessary.

[Steve Urquell]

Yep, I'd fix those kegs first. I brew only when I have a place for it to go in 3-4 weeks. Sometimes have to target a keg thats getting light though.

[Big Nake]

Yep, I'd fix those kegs first. I brew only when I have a place for it to go in 3-4 weeks. Sometimes have to target a keg thats getting light though.

Right. I could see me doing a schedule reshuffle and as it is I already have 4 on-deck kegs so it shouldn't really happen where I "run out of beer". There have been times when I have not had the time to brew much and consumption was up and production was down. I should still be able to climb out of that hole. Okay, so I have 2 beers in primary now and another 2 beers (I think) in secondary. I'll hold off for a bit and wait and then try to time it where I'm not keeping beers in secondary. That will be a part of the overall strategy along with some of this O2 stuff. Cheers.

[cavman]

I am not afraid of secondary especially for a lager. If worried try hitting the headspace with some co2. I see no problem with looking to improve your end product, just make sure you aren't looking for ghosts. You are a worry wart ken.

[Brauer]

I figure that a lager that's been cold in a keg that long is BETTER that way but it sounds like the long, cold lager phase is no longer thought of as it used to be.

I look at it like this, time is a way to help a beer with a problem, but, like off-flavors, time mutes good flavors.

Perhaps the idea of long lagering being beneficial came from the days when brewing was more crude and there were issues, when brewers were waiting for there beer to drop clear at cellar temperatures, or, perhaps, from brewers looking for super-mellow beers after extended exposure to macro-brew.

[positiveContact]

I usually regret letting a beer sit at cellar temps. maybe that is something specific to my process though.

I usually like to cold crash as soon as I think the beer tastes right and keep it cold.

[Big Nake]

I'm going to take an overview of my process, look at some of these O2 things and possibly do away with secondary. If I needed to store the occasional beer in a secondary, how does the panel feel about that if I were able to purge the secondary with CO2 first? Acceptable? Wince-worthy?

You are a worry wart ken.

Sometimes. I'm not a formally-trained brewer, I'm not overly scientific and even though I try to keep up with what is NEW in brewing, it always seems like things are changing and what used to be right is either wrong or no longer necessary. If I were going through additional steps that end up making my beer stale or oxidized, I want to address it. I want to make the best beer possible. Period.

Cheers gang.

[denny]

I've spent the week at CBC talking to brewers, including German brewer, and food scientists and doing my own research. After all of that I feel like the method, but not the goal, is even more bogus than I thought at first. Not a single German brewer or food scientist gave their methods any credence whatsoever. But all agree that excluding O2 is a good goal. Turns out there's a simple, inexpensive way to do that. I'll be experimenting with that in the upcoming weeks.