18 replies to this topic

[Brian72]

This is my second AG Stout and it's a failure. If I brew extract I'm ok. I just dont get it, all my other AG brews come out fantastic. Is it something about the stout style that I'm missing?

[cavman]

This is my second AG Stout and it's a failure. If I brew extract I'm ok. I just dont get it, all my other AG brews come out fantastic. Is it something about the stout style that I'm missing?

More info would help; IE what's wrong, recipe, pic off Red's ass, etc. C'mon Bri help ME help you.

[Brian72]

More info would help; IE what's wrong, recipe, pic off Red's ass, etc. C'mon Bri help ME help you.

It's not good, yo! Got that same burnt rubber taste the last AG stout had. I know it's not my sanitation so I'm not sure what else it could be.

[CarlosM]

It's not good, yo! Got that same burnt rubber taste the last AG stout had. I know it's not my sanitation so I'm not sure what else it could be.

recipe?

[BrewerGeorge]

I said something similar to zymological today...I also couldn't brew a decent AG stout until recently. For me it was the water. I have really hard water and assumed it was hard enough to make a stout. However, once I sent a sample to Ward and put the results into Palmer's spreadsheet, it turns out that even though I have over 300 TDS I don't have enough residual alkalinity to brew a good stout. Oh, it always converted fine, but it had a harsh roastiness - you could say burnt rubber - that was unpleasant. I think that although the pH was close enough for conversion, it was too acidic, and that the added acidity carried through to the finished beer and didn't play well with the roast flavor at all.I recently made my first AG stout in years, but this time I added enough chalk to get to the 300ish range of RA. (My water by itself is only 180 RA.) The difference was huge; this is a good beer. It's on tap now and quite drinkable. My friend and I did a side-by-side taste test today with it and Guiness draft from the widget can. We both agreed that mine was tastier. Most importantly, though, that harsh roastiness is completely gone.So anyway, it might be your water.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I said something similar to zymological today...I also couldn't brew a decent AG stout until recently. For me it was the water. I have really hard water and assumed it was hard enough to make a stout. However, once I sent a sample to Ward and put the results into Palmer's spreadsheet, it turns out that even though I have over 300 TDS I don't have enough residual alkalinity to brew a good stout. Oh, it always converted fine, but it had a harsh roastiness - you could say burnt rubber - that was unpleasant. I think that although the pH was close enough for conversion, it was too acidic, and that the added acidity carried through to the finished beer and didn't play well with the roast flavor at all.I recently made my first AG stout in years, but this time I added enough chalk to get to the 300ish range of RA. (My water by itself is only 180 RA.) The difference was huge; this is a good beer. It's on tap now and quite drinkable. My friend and I did a side-by-side taste test today with it and Guiness draft from the widget can. We both agreed that mine was tastier. Most importantly, though, that harsh roastiness is completely gone.So anyway, it might be your water.

Check this out - so I'm working on a recipe for an oatmeal stout and the predicted SRM is about 46. That means I need to get my RA to around 465 if I want to hit the middle of the range.In order to pull this off I need to add 15.3g of chalk and 5.5g of baking soda. (bolded for emphasis)So my adjusted mash chemistry looks like this now:Calcium (ppm): 421Magnesium (ppm): 3Alkaliniity as CaCO3: 753Sodium (ppm): 131Chloride (ppm): 28Sulfate (ppm): 16Effective Hardness: 302RA as CaCO3: 450Low to High SRM: 42-47Chloride to Sulfate Ratio: MaltyNow it seems like I'm having to add a pretty ridiculous amount of chalk and baking soda here so I wanted to make sure none of the levels in my adjusted mash too high.

[3rd party JKor]

Palmer recommends keeping RA below 300, no matter what the color. The problem with his spreadsheet/nomograph is that it assumes a fairly linear decrease in pH with color. It's not linear, eventually it plateaus. During the BN Waterganza he said that even if you did a mash of 100% roasted grain the pH still won't be below about 4.5. Adding more roasted grains isn't like adding straight acid to the mash, it's more like adding an acidic buffer.

Edited by JKoravos, 26 September 2009 - 05:39 AM.

[Brian72]

I said something similar to zymological today...I also couldn't brew a decent AG stout until recently. For me it was the water. I have really hard water and assumed it was hard enough to make a stout. However, once I sent a sample to Ward and put the results into Palmer's spreadsheet, it turns out that even though I have over 300 TDS I don't have enough residual alkalinity to brew a good stout. Oh, it always converted fine, but it had a harsh roastiness - you could say burnt rubber - that was unpleasant. I think that although the pH was close enough for conversion, it was too acidic, and that the added acidity carried through to the finished beer and didn't play well with the roast flavor at all.I recently made my first AG stout in years, but this time I added enough chalk to get to the 300ish range of RA. (My water by itself is only 180 RA.) The difference was huge; this is a good beer. It's on tap now and quite drinkable. My friend and I did a side-by-side taste test today with it and Guiness draft from the widget can. We both agreed that mine was tastier. Most importantly, though, that harsh roastiness is completely gone.So anyway, it might be your water.

Thanks for the info, George. I will look into that. What I dont get though is if I brew a stout extract kit they always tuen out just fine. I think I'll so ahead a transfer this to secondary and see what, if anything happens to it. Maybe it will get better with age or maybe it will just turn out to be a good candidate for the drain.

[denny]

What I dont get though is if I brew a stout extract kit they always tuen out just fine.

Which is because you're not mashing. The extract is made with the proper pH so that carries over when you use it.

[Brian72]

Which is because you're not mashing. The extract is made with the proper pH so that carries over when you use it.

Ah, ok. That makes sense. I never thought of that...

[BrewerGeorge]

Palmer recommends keeping RA below 300, no matter what the color. The problem with his spreadsheet/nomograph is that it assumes a fairly linear decrease in pH with color. It's not linear, eventually it plateaus. During the BN Waterganza he said that even if you did a mash of 100% roasted grain the pH still won't be below about 4.5. Adding more roasted grains isn't like adding straight acid to the mash, it's more like adding an acidic buffer.

Yeah, this. I don't adjust above 300, either.Just how soft IS your water, zymn?

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Yeah, this. I don't adjust above 300, either.Just how soft IS your water, zymn?

Calcium Hardness: 6.2 ppmMagnesium: 3 ppmAlkalinity as CaCO3: 24Sodium: 29 ppmChloride: 28 ppmSulfate: 16 ppmWater pH: 7.81So I was totally unaware of the 300 RA limit. So if I'm brewing something dark enough I should just bring the RA up to 300 and stop there or should I actually shoot for a little under 300 to be safe?

[BrewerGeorge]

I make whatever I want, I just bring RA up to 300 and stop.

[zymot]

Wouldn't FiveStar 5.2 pH buffer make all this a moot point unles your water is way-way of of whack?

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Wouldn't FiveStar 5.2 pH buffer make all this a moot point unles your water is way-way of of whack?

maybe but I was looking to avoid using this since I can't see any valid reason why my water + mash additions wouldn't allow me to brew whatever I wanted anyway.

[BrewerGeorge]

Wouldn't FiveStar 5.2 pH buffer make all this a moot point unles your water is way-way of of whack?

I've had very bad luck with stouts and 5.2. Essentially, it didn't change anything: Still full conversion, but acrid taste. I think it's intended mostly to let you brew beers that are lighter than your water would otherwise allow.

[Slainte]

Wouldn't FiveStar 5.2 pH buffer make all this a moot point unles your water is way-way of of whack?

When I used to use it, I started to notice a slight mineral-y taste in some of my less intensely flavored beers. So I stopped using it. I don't think I ever used it in a stout, but one of my friends did and he still made "dirty" stouts regardless. He doesn't use it anymore either.Besides, it's real easy to just read pH, and adjust it to the proper range.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I make whatever I want, I just bring RA up to 300 and stop.

To give you an idea I need to add 7.2g of chalk and 4.4g of baking soda to put me up to just below 300 RA.

[xd_haze]

I've had very bad luck with stouts and 5.2. Essentially, it didn't change anything: Still full conversion, but acrid taste. I think it's intended mostly to let you brew beers that are lighter than your water would otherwise allow.

I think it is going to depend on your water. 5.2 fixed my stouts -- I had the same problem many of you describe. But I think I was just barely out of range. 5.2 is a must if I want to brew a light colored beer without using load of DI water. I think I'm right in the midrange (i'd have to hunt down my water report). Stouts were so so without 5.2, but increased quality dramatically with 5.2. I imagine that if your are further out of range, then 5.2 wouldn't cut it. I use 5.2 by default these days. My water is inconsistent, and it makes mineral additions guesswork.mike