24 replies to this topic

[Brim2theDregs]

Hi Guys. I am redesign my brew house. Just sheetrocked and insulated a 12x16 building, Got 240V 30A CFCI breaker (thanks for all the good info stangbat and others about going electric) I know Stainless is the best option, but do I really need to spend 100$ on a 12G stainless pot for an HLT? Funds are low but I got to get back brewin ASAP. GOT ZERO HOMEBREW!!!Unless I spend 70$ and up on a Polypropylene vessel, I don't think I want to use plastic unless someone can tell me first hand that a 12 gallon polyethylene bucket can withstand 170 degrees F and trust that to a 240V 3500 Watt element. I like the idea of how easy that would be to make, but that's about it.Has anybody tried a good used aluminum stock pot from a restaurant supply? I can get one on the cheap local. Is there is a good way to clean one up and remove any flavors that might leach out? I know PBW is a no-no on Al.I keep surfin Craigslist for stainless to no avail!??? What to do ???? Out of Homebrew!!!

[Sidney Porter]

The home depot here (Jax FL) has 20 Gallon AL pots for $130, they also had smaller sizes. If this is for you HLT fill with water boil empty. let it oxidize and turn gray leave it that color.My understanding is that you want that layer. As far as cleaning all that is ever in it is water, I would just rinse it out prior to use assuming it gets dusty.For electric I think heating in the cooler my be the the best option.

[djinkc]

I used an ice cube cooler for a EHLT for a while - it's in a landfill now. Plastic just didn't hold up well and it always dripped a bit around the bulkhead. I'm using a Sanke keg for the EHLT now. I'd get the Al pot and use it - I boil in a 20 gal Al restaurant kettle. A little PBW scrub won't hurt it, just don't soak with it. Personally I would just use dish soap, and rinse well.

[Deerslyr]

I know Stainless is the best option, but do I really need to spend 100$ on a 12G stainless pot for an HLT?

An HLT is definitely where you can use aluminum. God help us if it was unsafe to boil water in aluminum... really think all those italian restaurants are boiling water in stainless steel??? I use my 5 gallon aluminum pot (from the turkey fryer setup) as my HLT. I use propane now, but previously was using a heat stick, so in a sense it was an EHLT. Only reccomendation is to make sure the element is well below the valve sending the water out. You need to make sure that element is in water when its turned on. My nervousness over this issue is the reason I stopped using the heat stick for this purpose and switched to propane. Just get a cheap pot that has enough capacity for your needs and I think you will be fine. Since it is only water, as previously mentioned, you just need to rinse it out.

[BrewerGeorge]

Have you made plans for something to agitate the water to prevent stratification? I finally decided not to make an electric HLT because of the extra complications of agitation. I heat the sparge water in the main kettle and still get very significant stratification unless I use the pump to recirc the water. Significant as in if I set the controller to 170F, the top will be 190F and bottom 170F (sensor is at the bottom).

[Brim2theDregs]

I guess I'll hold out for a nice stainless or AL vessel. I can get a converted keg for about 120$, just trying to find something cheaper. I'm batch sparging 10G batches right now and mostly do pale ales. I have a 32Quart aluminum turkey fryer, but I would max that thing out on a 1.050 beer though. It's just so tempting to throw that thing together because I have all the parts to make it.I agree DJ that a cooler probably wouldn't be the best vessel for an E-HLT. Not to say that it hasn't been done with good results before. My mash tun is a Coleman Extreme 70 and it's never leaked on me in a dozen or so batches, but mounting a 3500W watt element in a cooler has got to be hit or miss cause you have the inner skin, insulation, and outer skin. The inner skin probably isn't thick enough to do the job by itself and going through the whole thing would be a sealing headache.I really want to try a cheap (18$) 12 gallon plastic fermenter for the time being though. I just can't get that off my mind! The ones I can get local are PET though, and everything I read out about it states 120F is probably it's max before it softens up. It's too bad that I can't find a cheap, thick bucket made from polypropylene... it's good to 165 or so. I have seen a pic of someone overseas using a plastic fermenter with an element mounted through the sidewall, so I know it can be done. I was just wanting to talk with someone with first hand knowledge. Nobody has done that around here... as I know of.Deerslyr, you make a good point about going electric. Even though I am aware of the dangers, thanks for passing that info on about dry-firing and such. I learned a lot from you guys on here about going electric.I didn't know HD had new stock pots that big SP!!! something to keep in mind!

[Brim2theDregs]

Have you made plans for something to agitate the water to prevent stratification? I finally decided not to make an electric HLT because of the extra complications of agitation. I heat the sparge water in the main kettle and still get very significant stratification unless I use the pump to recirc the water. Significant as in if I set the controller to 170F, the top will be 190F and bottom 170F (sensor is at the bottom).

Good point man. I'm flying seat of the pants right now and just plan to stir by hand at first with a big spoon. Do you think that will be too much of a PITA? I plan on mounting the water inlet close to the top and on the side of the vessel. This will leave the lid free and clear to open it up and stir. I also plan on mounting a "T" somewhere near the bottom to insert a dial thermometer and add a sight gauge. I have thought about rigging up one of those Molon stir motors but that will be down the road. Shoot, every time someone posts a beautiful coil of copper in their HLT, I want to go HERMS, I just can't quite convince myself that the pump and lines are worth the extra expense and added sanitation work. It's not the build that stops me, it's the cleaning and worrying about places I can't look inside!I thing I will be happy for a while with my un-automated S.O.T.P. gravity system. Hell, it's tons better than not having an HLT and pouring 170F water via pitcher into the mash tun! Eventually I know I'll want to upgrade though...that's just a happy healthy part of the beer brewing evolution, eh brother? When I hit a wall with gravity and batch sparging, I'm sure I'll do something else!

[HVB]

Have you made plans for something to agitate the water to prevent stratification? I finally decided not to make an electric HLT because of the extra complications of agitation. I heat the sparge water in the main kettle and still get very significant stratification unless I use the pump to recirc the water. Significant as in if I set the controller to 170F, the top will be 190F and bottom 170F (sensor is at the bottom).

I have a motor that I planned on installing as a stir motor but have not got to it yet.. What I do though is I have an external heat exchanger and I recirculate from the HLT to a pump and through the HE and back to the HLT. This does 2 things for me. It helps heat the water in the HLT faster and also creates a whirpool in the HLT to help equalize the temperature.

[tag]

You could just use a "bucket heater" in your cooler. I set up a RANCO thermostat at night and it's ready to go in the morning.Definitely stir or pump it to mix it all up.

[3rd party JKor]

unless someone can tell me first hand that a 12 gallon polyethylene bucket can withstand 170 degrees F

I transfer boiling water from my kettle to my MLT in a HDPE bucket. I gets a little more flexy, but it's not melting or anything. I'd bet it could handle the 170F without a problem.That being said, you should get a stainless vessel. :shock:BTW, where did you read PET gets soft at 120F? That's just wrong. PET has better temp resistance than PP or PE.

Edited by JKoravos, 17 September 2009 - 12:30 PM.

[djinkc]

I'd jump on this if 4 ga. is around 5mm thick - think it ishttps://www.instawares.com/stock-pot-aluminum-80.alsksp010.0.7.htm?gclid=CPKqy%2d61%2dZwCFRPyDAodtAI3bg&

[Brim2theDregs]

I'd jump on this if 4 ga. is around 5mm thick - think it ishttps://www.instawar...FRPyDAodtAI3bg

That's a great price on a nice pot, but by the time shipping is added I'm up to 93$, might as well get a keggle for 25$ more?Here is where I got the plastic temp. info from JK... https://www.kenplas....ic/recyclelogo/Thanks for the suggestion on the bucket heater tag, cause I have a couple of Ranco's, but how would I heat the sparge water? I don't think a bucket heater will heat up the volume that I need in an hour (during the mash). If I did my research, a 3500W element shouldn't have any problem getting 8-10 gallons up to temp in a half hour or so.Edited for typo.

[tag]

That's a great price on a nice pot, but by the time shipping is added I'm up to 93$, might as well get a keggle for 25$ more?Here is where I got the plastic temp. info from JK... https://www.kenplas....ic/recyclelogo/Thanks for the suggestion on the bucket heater tag, cause I have a couple of Ranco's, but how would I heat the sparge water? I don't think a bucket heater will heat up the volume that I need in an hour (during the mash). If I did my research, a 3500W element shouldn't have any problem getting 8-10 gallons up to temp in a half hour or so.Edited for typo.

Yeah, they are 1000W and will take about 3 hours for 15 gallons. That's why I set it up the night before.

[djinkc]

..... If I did my research, a 3500W element shouldn't have any problem getting 8-10 gallons up to temp in a half hour or so.Edited for typo.

It takes me around 30 min to top off my Sanke EHLT (maybe 5 gal left in it) with cold water to recirculate/vorlauf at mash temps (with a HERMS coil in the EHLT) and then mashout around 165+ and sparge with the same water. That's with a 4500 watt element.

[3rd party JKor]

Here is where I got the plastic temp. info from JK... https://www.kenplas....ic/recyclelogo/

I'm not sure where they are getting those "max temp" numbers. They don't seem right.

[dondewey]

My experience is totally different from a lot of guys on here.First off, the coolers are usually PE on the outside and a higher temp plastic (PP, I think) on the inside.Second, my 60 qt igloo has had zero leaks since it was first used on 9/30/2007 (albeit only 15 batches).Third, I never really noticed any evidence of temp stratification when draining the HLT to dough in, mash out (usually set temp to 208!), or sparge and my T/C is near the outlet. Last time I brewed I checked all around the HLT water about 5 minutes after hitting strike temp, and I saw ONE degree variation up or down. Perhaps the geometry of the 60qt cube with the sloped side makes a difference. My element is less than an inch from the bottom.I don't know why my experience is so different, but at least you know some of us are happy with the cooler HLTs.

[Kremer]

My brewpartner cousin and I have two 48qt cubes as E-HLT's, they each have two 1500W elements. We have not had any trouble with them leaking around the elements. we cut a custom washer out of some stainless sheet stock to reinforce the inside wall of the cooler because the brass plumbing nut is quite narrow. We also made a similar reinforcement for the bulkhead drain at the bottoms of the coolers and have not had any leak problems there since we did that. Our elements are about 4" off the bottom and we do have stratification problems, it seems the elements only heat up the water above them. This hasn't proved to be too much of a hassle as we just open the lid and give the HLT a quick stir before checking the temperature. We are quite happy with the HLT's.

[Brim2theDregs]

JKravos... I know they can mix other substances in with the PE (PolyEthylene) and PP (PolyPropylene) to get their temp resistance/melt point up. There are high and low density PE's also. The trouble is, I don't believe you can tell from the recycling number/designation how well it's performance will be in high temp situations.I also don't think that we have to worry about bad things leeching out of the PE and PP plastic. That was my main concern before going to a coleman extreme cooler for mashing. I think there is a debate about polycarbonates leaching bisphenol A which may cause cancer in lab rats, but who really knows. From what my limited brain can process, I don't think you have to worry about that if you stick with PE and PP.Thanks for the ice cube suggestions guys. 26$ is a verrrrry attractive price for an insulated vessel. I like the S/S bulkhead reinforcement idea as well. We have plenty of stainless scrap at work readily available to me. I appreciate the heads-up on the element placement Kremer. Hey dondewey, is this your cube? that's really impressive about the homogeneous temps you are reading without stiring. In fact, that is down right awesome! I less thing to worry about! You said you mounted the element low, would you be so kind as to elaborate on element placement? I assume horizontal and in the middle of the wall, but did you go in on the side, front or back? I would love to see a pic if possible. What is the wattage and length of your element? Right now I have a 3500W 240V element about 11" long, but I can go a different route.Thanks for all the great info guys.

[Brim2theDregs]

Hey DJ ... It concerns me that you had problems with your cooler leaking cause you strike me as a pretty dang sharp guy who likes to do things right. Did you try something like this DJ? I think this guy may be on to something with his cooler bulkhead seal design. I think I might be able to do some variation on that with the element as well. I think the key is to cut away the insulation and outside skin to isolate the seal against the inside skin.I'm still checking on some local AL and SS stock pots, but man, less than 30$ for a new, clean, already insulated, easy to drill and cut, vessel is mighty attractive!

[dondewey]

Yeah, that's the cooler I'm using. I didn't do anything as elaborate as that guy. I cut away a good size area of the blue plastic, scraped out the insulation and just stuck the element with its standard gasket through a hole I cut and screwed into a stainless fitting on the inside. The element can really only fit in one direction/location. For the valve I used the pre-existing drain location where there is no insullation - just solid plastic. This location also ensures that you'll ever run the HLT dry. I screwed in a plastic ceiling fan mount and a male receptacle to make the conections to the element.