25 replies to this topic

[haeffnkr]

Hello All,

 

Last Fall I finally made some changes to my process and was making some great beer.

I finally got rid of the lacto/acto vinegar wang infection I was passing around.

 

I have been making some good lagers lately but screwed up the last 2.

The first one I used my old plastic fermenter that had an infected batch in it, that I soaked in Starsan... all the way up to the top... but I should of used bleach I guess.

The finished beer had that little bit of citrus/vinegar wang to it.....anyway... bought new fermenters, problem solved.

 

I had/have several kegs that had this lacto ridden beer in them, that I was saving to possibly distill off some day.. but that never happened and I need the kegs as my pipeline is building up.

I made another light lager in a glass carboy and transferred it to a keg that was clean, spotless inside, washed by a rag inside,  sprayed with PBW solution via my keg washer with spinner ball that pumped the solution through the posts also.

I then disambled to the keg, soaked the posts, lid and orings in a bleach/vinegar solution and soaked the keg in starsan to the top for a few days.  I then reassembled and pumped the starsan out with CO2.

I filled the keg and some 1 liter bottles and carbed them up with the  co2 caps

The bottles tasted great, the keg has a slight wang to it...ugh.

 

So all that said... 

How would you/should I go about cleaning a keg with infected beer in it? I have read that this lacto/acto bug is hard to kill and heavy bleach is the only way.

I am thinking about a through of cleaning with PBW, and the spraying with Bleach in my keg washer? Pull apart the keg and replace the orings, fill with star san and soak?

 

I am baffled....sorry to ramble.

 

Kevin

 

[HVB]

 

So all that said... 

How would you/should I go about cleaning a keg with infected beer in it? I have read that this lacto/acto bug is hard to kill and heavy bleach is the only way.

I am thinking about a through of cleaning with PBW, and the spraying with Bleach in my keg washer? Pull apart the keg and replace the orings, fill with star san and soak?

 

That is how I would go about it.  Give it a good, extended trip to the keg cleaner with PBW and hit it with a soaking of star-san.  replacing all the soft goods goes with out saying.  The only part I have not replaced are poppets but I guess they could still harbor some of the bugs.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Change out all the soft parts. Replace the buttons in the posts with aftermarket new ones. Set up your HLT and your boil kettle. Heat water in both of them to 180 degrees. Add PBW to one of them. Pump the hot pbw through the keg. Use the hot rinse water after that. Put the lid, posts, and springs in the hot pbw to soak, then rinse them with hot water. If that doesn't kill it then I'm not sure what would. 

[Brauer]

Bleach diluted 1:20 for 20 minutes will kill anything but a few rare spores that require autoclaving to kill. It won't do your stainless any good, though.Are you sure that your problem isn't chlorine or chloramine in your water or carried over from your cleaning process? I'm not sure exactly what "wang" means to you, but it might be used to describe a moderate polyphenol problem.

[MakeMeHoppy]

I was going to suggest using heat after all of the rubber parts are removed. If you use bleach don't let it soak, spray it and rinse it.

[Big Nake]

I'm not sure exactly what "wang" means to you...

Sounds like something from the PH...

[denny]

Use Craftmeister alkaline cleaner instead of PBW.  MUCH more effective.

[HVB]

Use Craftmeister alkaline cleaner instead of PBW.  MUCH more effective.

in what sense?  Does it clean better or is it just faster?

[neddles]

Use Craftmeister alkaline cleaner instead of PBW.  MUCH more effective.

Denny, I think you've attained a position where disclosures would be appropriate/appreciated when and where you have them. Do you have any that you would like to make WRT this product? Thanks.

[haeffnkr]

Change out all the soft parts. Replace the buttons in the posts with aftermarket new ones. 

 

Source? or are  you talking about universal poppets?

 

Bleach diluted 1:20 for 20 minutes will kill anything but a few rare spores that require autoclaving to kill. It won't do your stainless any good, though.Are you sure that your problem isn't chlorine or chloramine in your water or carried over from your cleaning process? I'm not sure exactly what "wang" means to you, but it might be used to describe a moderate polyphenol problem.

 

I think I will run some bleach solution via the keg cleaner for a few minutes after the hot pbw and new parts, then rinse then starsan soak.

Any other kegs I have cleaned were fine with just a pbw and starsan soak... but there is some potent bugs in these.

 

It is a vinegar / cidery wang that I have been chasing... orginitated from grinding grain in my brew space, dirty spunding valve assembies and dirty co2 lines in my kegerator.

 

thanks for the help.

Kevin

[djinkc]

Source? or are  you talking about universal poppets?

I would definitely replace the poppets or pressure steam sterilize them. I haven't used the universals yet but heard good things.

[haeffnkr]

I would definitely replace the poppets or pressure steam sterilize them. I haven't used the universals yet but heard good things.

 

I do have a pressure cooker.... would that kill any nasties in the rubber parts? 

 

I have some oring kits and more on order... but if I could get the pressure relief valve and maybe the poppets cleaned up tomorrow in the pressure cooker that would be great.

thoughts?

[HVB]

I would definitely replace the poppets or pressure steam sterilize them. I haven't used the universals yet but heard good things.

The universal ones I have used have worked very well.

[Brauer]

I do have a pressure cooker.... would that kill any nasties in the rubber parts? 

It will be more effective than any chemical method, since it can actually sterilize, if they are already clean. Dirt decreases the effectiveness of any method of sterilization or sanitization.

[djinkc]

I do have a pressure cooker.... would that kill any nasties in the rubber parts? 

 

I have some oring kits and more on order... but if I could get the pressure relief valve and maybe the poppets cleaned up tomorrow in the pressure cooker that would be great.

thoughts?

 

Yeah, take them apart and clean them.  20 minutes at pressure ought to do it IMO.  And  probably would for all the other soft parts.

[bigdaddyale]

American Society for MicrobiologyFebruary 19, 2006Adding white vinegar to diluted household bleach greatly increases the disinfecting power of the solution, making it strong enough to kill even bacterial spores. Researchers from MicroChem Lab, Inc. in Euless, Texas, report their findings today at the 2006 ASM Biodefense Research Meeting.Sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl) in the form of laundry bleach is available in most households. The concentrate is about 5.25 to 6 percent NaOCl, and the pH value is about 12. Sodium hypochlorite is stable for many months at this high alkaline pH value."Laundry bleach is commonly diluted about 10 to 25-fold with tap water to about 2000 to 5000 parts per million of free available chlorine for use as an environmental surface disinfectant, without regard to the pH value of the diluted bleach. However, the pH value is very important for the antimicrobial effectiveness of bleach," says Norman Miner, a researcher on the study.At alkaline pH values of about 8.5 or higher, more than 90 percent of the bleach is in the form of the chlorite ion (OCl-), which is relatively ineffective antimicrobially. At acidic pH values of about 6.8 or lower, more than 80 percent of the bleach is in the form of hypochlorite (HOCl). HOCl is about 80 to 200 times more antimicrobial than OCl-"Bleach is a much more effective antimicrobial chemical at an acidic pH value than at the alkaline Ph value at which bleach is manufactured and stored. A small amount of household vinegar is sufficient to lower the pH of bleach to an acidic range," says Miner.Miner and his colleagues compared the ability of alkaline (pH 11) and acidified (pH 6) bleach dilutions to disinfect surfaces contaminated with dried bacterial spores, considered the most resistant to disinfectants of all microbes. The alkaline dilution was practically ineffective, killing all of the spores on only 2.5 percent of the surfaces after 20 minutes. During the same time period the acidified solution killed all of the spores on all of the surfaces."Diluted bleach at an alkaline pH is a relatively poor disinfectant, but acidified diluted bleach will virtually kill anything in 10 to 20 minutes," says Miner. "In the event of an emergency involving Bacillus anthracis spores contaminating such environmental surfaces as counter tops, desk and table tops, and floors, for example, virtually every household has a sporicidal sterilant available in the form of diluted, acidified bleach."Miner recommends first diluting one cup of household bleach in one gallon of water and then adding one cup of white vinegar.

[denny]

in what sense?  Does it clean better or is it just faster?

 

Cleans MUCH better, dissolves and rinses more easily.

Denny, I think you've attained a position where disclosures would be appropriate/appreciated when and where you have them. Do you have any that you would like to make WRT this product? Thanks.

 

Well, they sent me some samples to test and I thought it worked great.  Is that what you were looking for?

[neddles]

Well, they sent me some samples to test and I thought it worked great.  Is that what you were looking for?

Well... kind of. Just curious if you had any financial or personal connections to the company, that's all. You're a pretty big name these days and I'd bet there's some money to be had in endorsements if you aren't already doing that.

Edited by nettles, 16 June 2015 - 09:31 AM.

[denny]

Well... kind of. Just curious if you had any financial or personal connections to the company, that's all. You're a pretty big name these days and I'd bet there's some money to be had in endorsements if you aren't already doing that.

 

Nope...absolutely not.  Companies send me products to check out, but there's no other reimbursement.  And I make it clear to them that I will say exactly what I think without considering the samples they give me.  Please don't infer that any of my opinions are colored by some sort of remuneration.

[Big Nake]

Ooh, did it just get mildly chilly in here? :PI will also say this: I used a product called Easy Clean which (I think...) is made by LD Carlson. It comes with some warnings on the label like, "Wear safety goggles and impervious gloves" when you use it. I watched this stuff dissolve some very stubborn "beer stain" from tubing and beer line and I was impressed. If I ever had some really nasty, stuck-on stuff, I would use this stuff in a hot water solution and then use Starsan. The only reason I have not continued to use this stuff is that I now pick up big boxes of Oxi Versatile from Sam's Club and it seems to work well for what I need it for.Here we go...

Edited by Village Taphouse, 16 June 2015 - 09:54 AM.