17 replies to this topic

[KSUwildcatFAN]

Is there any type of table, or chart, that shows acceptable substitutes for grains?I'm shooting for something simple, in all likelihood a beer that Sidney Porter suggested to me, but I've been looking over other recipes. I then look at a couple online stores (that I assume have good variety). They often don't have much or any of the grains called for in Recipe X. I have no idea what can be substituted for what and assume there's a decent chance this will be necessary no matter what I do unless my LHBS has a super huge variety.

[djinkc]

B&B on on Neiman has a pretty good selection. I've got a pretty good stock too if you need something.

[KSUwildcatFAN]

B&B on on Neiman has a pretty good selection. I've got a pretty good stock too if you need something.

That's probably the closest one to me, so that's where I was planning to go. I also do appreciate the offer.Assuming I can't get exactly what a recipe calls for (in this recipe and others in the future), is there any guide about what can be substituted for what? I mean, I literally know nothing from one grain to the next when it comes to brewing.

[MtnBrewer]

That's probably the closest one to me, so that's where I was planning to go. I also do appreciate the offer.Assuming I can't get exactly what a recipe calls for (in this recipe and others in the future), is there any guide about what can be substituted for what? I mean, I literally know nothing from one grain to the next when it comes to brewing.

I don't recall seeing a chart like that. It would be hard to come up with such a chart because what can be substituted for what varies according to the beer you're making and how far you're willing to stray from the ideal. There are a few grains that are basically the same but go by different names and these can be substituted freely. For example, amber and biscuit malt are the same thing. Special roast is similar to those but is a little darker. C120, Special B and CaraAroma are all very similar if not identical. I know this isn't what you want to hear but I recommend that you read up on different grains and learn for yourself which ones to substitute. Also, if you have specific substitution questions, we can probably answer them for you. If that's more time than you're willing to invest then maybe kits are a better way to go for you.

[Deerslyr]

That's probably the closest one to me, so that's where I was planning to go. I also do appreciate the offer.Assuming I can't get exactly what a recipe calls for (in this recipe and others in the future), is there any guide about what can be substituted for what? I mean, I literally know nothing from one grain to the next when it comes to brewing.

I don't know of a chart that you can use, but it would be worthwhile to pick up Designing Great Beers by Ray Daniels. He discusses (in a very concise manner) the malting process (or lack of malting in some cases) and attributes each grain brings to a beer. When I am thinking of brewing a new style, I go to this book first.

[BrewerGeorge]

Amber and biscuit are the same? I knew biscuit and victory were the same, but thought amber was more "base-malty" than specialty.

[MtnBrewer]

Amber and biscuit are the same? I knew biscuit and victory were the same, but thought amber was more "base-malty" than specialty.

They taste the same to me but I guess YMMV. I know there is Belgian and British biscuit and it's the British one that tastes like amber to me. Victory is more like the Belgian biscuit.

[BrewerGeorge]

They taste the same to me but I guess YMMV. I know there is Belgian and British biscuit and it's the British one that tastes like amber to me. Victory is more like the Belgian biscuit.

Good to know.

[chuck_d]

Okay ready for my detailed response?Amber and Biscuit are not the same. Amber malt is a Colored malt while Biscuit is a Roasted malt. They have similar color ratings (amber in the 15-40 ASBC range, while biscuit is in the 17-25 ASBC range). The big difference is in how they are produced. Colored malts are produced like base malts except with a higher kiln-off temperature (and are well-modified). So the process goes steep, germinate, kiln, cool. The are dried at relatively low temperatures (compared to other specialty malts, but higher than base malt). In the case of amber malt the kiln off temperature is held at 93*C for 20 minutes, then it's continuously raised to 150*C to develop its color. This is actually a very high temperature for a colored malt as most of them use 85-115*C (Pale Ale is 85-90, Vienna 90-95, Munich is 100-105, Aromatic 115), but the Amber does spend 20 minutes in the low 90s first.Roasted malts are produced like normal malt, and then roasted (roasting is done with higher temperatures and humidity levels than kilning). The process goes steep, germinate, kiln, roast, cool. Kiln-off temperatures for roasted malts are very near the combustion temperature for malt ~220*C (in fact sometimes they do start fires while roasting malts). In order to get the different colors in roasted malts the malt is quenched with water to stop color development. This is how you get biscuit in 17-25, chocolate in 300-500 and black malt in the 400-800 ASBC rating ranges.For completeness sake, the third classification of specialty malts is Caramel. Caramel malts skip the kilning step but are roasted. So the process goes steep, germinate, roast, cool. Additionally, they are given extra humidification either at the end of germination or the start of kilning to "stew" the grain (gelatinization and liquifaction of some of the starches into sugars around 65-70*C, like your mash). One thing that really sucks about caramel malts in the marketplace is that many things are called caramel without actually being caramel. I know there is one company that produces a malt called caramel which is not and so they spell it Karamel. Also, most (if not all) malts sold as Caramel 10, 20 and 30 are colored malts and not caramel malts.We just finished malting today, and Specialty Malts was the last section so I'm currently consolidating my notes for the quiz on Friday morning. I'm making a study guide for a 3 hour study session at Goose Island tomorrow after class. :huh:Edit: oh yeah! Victory is a brand name for a biscuit malt.Edit2: fixed some typos and made it clear I meant the third classification of *specialty* malts, obviously there is base malt which is not a colored, caramel or roasted malt. Note that pale malt and pale ale malt are not the same thing. Pale malt is a base malt and pale ale malt is a color malt.

Edited by chuck_d, 16 September 2009 - 06:33 PM.

[jayb151]

I'm making a study guide for a 3 hour study session at Goose Island tomorrow after class.

Hey Chuck, I'll be at UIC till 3 so feel free to stop by with a growler! Enjoy, you bastard

[chuck_d]

Hey Chuck, I'll be at UIC till 3 so feel free to stop by with a growler! Enjoy, you bastard

Hey, I was chatting it up with Randy Mosher the other day over a beer in the stube, and apparently there is a homebrew meeting at Goose Island on the first Thursday I think of every month (maybe Tuesday). I was thinking that might be a good time to meet up with the ChiTowners, but I wanted to confirm the date and stuff before posting up. After this quiz I'll start to get a feel for how much studying I need to do and stuff like that. I think I'm gonna kill this quiz, it's multiple choice. Honestly, I probably just wrote more about specialty malts than will be on the quiz since tomorrow we do hops, and the malting focus was certainly not specialty malts. We covered more on barley breeding than we did on specialty malts. I'll post up here though next week about planning a get together.

Edited by chuck_d, 16 September 2009 - 06:53 PM.

[jayb151]

Huh, I had never heard of that, but I’ve only been to GI Clyborn once. I think If you solidify a date a bunch of Chi-brewers can probably make it.

[djinkc]

Okay ready for my detailed response?............

Keep it up cd. Love to see a course vicariously. Always appreciate your posts.And to throw a wrench in I always looked at Victory as Special Roast's little brother.That, KSUwildcat is why any list that is out there will be debated, discussed and probably debunked. Throw us the subs you're thinking about and see what some of us think.

[DaBearSox]

So back on the topic of Amber malt....My LHBS does not carry it...the one that is about 10 extra miles does...i would rather just toast my own at home but do not have a crusher...would it be acceptable to toast the crushed grain or should I look for a sub/drive the extra 10 miles.

[chuck_d]

So back on the topic of Amber malt....My LHBS does not carry it...the one that is about 10 extra miles does...i would rather just toast my own at home but do not have a crusher...would it be acceptable to toast the crushed grain or should I look for a sub/drive the extra 10 miles.

I guess the question is, acceptable to whom? It's your beer, and I say do what you want to learn what you want. I was at Briess on Monday and they were talking about how with caramel malts you can easily sub closely numbered malts in a very straight forward mathematically way. (like, 2 pounds of caramel 60 = 3 pounds caramel 40). This is especially true for color, but to a lesser degree for flavor (you'll end up with slightly less flavor contribution from the 2 pounds of 60 than you will from the 3 of 40). So if you wanted to substitute I personally would stick within the same classification of specialty malt (see my previous long post) so for amber I'd probably try aromatic malt, and then do the color math. It won't be perfect, but it will get you in the ballpark if not even playing the same position.Now, when it comes to heating your grains in order to simulate amber malt, I think you are going to have a very difficult time for many reasons. The malt has already been dried past the moisture content where it receives the high heat to develop its color and flavor. This color and flavor are the result of Maillard reactions which require the presence the water. Additionally, if you plan on using precrushed malt, the little moisture that is already in your malt is going to be driven off much faster, you'd want to rehydrate it, but controlling that process will be very difficult. Also, amber malt is just a highly kilned color malt, it's never put into the roaster which has the higher temperatures. Sure, it gets pushed up to a kiln-off of 150*C, but it spends 20 minutes closer to 90*C while it still has a fair amount of moisture in it. I think that toasting at home in your oven is probalby best reserved for reproducing roasted malts like biscuit or special roast. All that said, I've never tried to roast or color my own malts. And like I started this post off, acceptable to whom? Try it if you wanna try it, I guarantee you'll learn something, even if it is that you cannot produce amber malt in your over from crushed malt.

[DaBearSox]

I guess the question is, acceptable to whom? It's your beer, and I say do what you want to learn what you want. I was at Briess on Monday and they were talking about how with caramel malts you can easily sub closely numbered malts in a very straight forward mathematically way. (like, 2 pounds of caramel 60 = 3 pounds caramel 40). This is especially true for color, but to a lesser degree for flavor (you'll end up with slightly less flavor contribution from the 2 pounds of 60 than you will from the 3 of 40). So if you wanted to substitute I personally would stick within the same classification of specialty malt (see my previous long post) so for amber I'd probably try aromatic malt, and then do the color math. It won't be perfect, but it will get you in the ballpark if not even playing the same position.Now, when it comes to heating your grains in order to simulate amber malt, I think you are going to have a very difficult time for many reasons. The malt has already been dried past the moisture content where it receives the high heat to develop its color and flavor. This color and flavor are the result of Maillard reactions which require the presence the water. Additionally, if you plan on using precrushed malt, the little moisture that is already in your malt is going to be driven off much faster, you'd want to rehydrate it, but controlling that process will be very difficult. Also, amber malt is just a highly kilned color malt, it's never put into the roaster which has the higher temperatures. Sure, it gets pushed up to a kiln-off of 150*C, but it spends 20 minutes closer to 90*C while it still has a fair amount of moisture in it. I think that toasting at home in your oven is probalby best reserved for reproducing roasted malts like biscuit or special roast. All that said, I've never tried to roast or color my own malts. And like I started this post off, acceptable to whom? Try it if you wanna try it, I guarantee you'll learn something, even if it is that you cannot produce amber malt in your over from crushed malt.

Thanks for the great write up...I think my post came out a little vague though...I have toasted grain before from reading randy mosher and ray daniels and I have found it works out very well. One of my favorites is the Fat Tire clone that is posted on the other site that calls for 2 lbs of home toasted Amber malt. I find that (i didn't let it sit for 2 weeks) it gave a great toasted/roasty flavor on top of the biscuit in a recipe like that. When I have toasted before I had access to a crusher...As of now I do not have access so I guess my real question is, Would toasting crushed grains introduce too much color and off flavors?

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

Roast them uncrushed. If your only using a pound or two, crush the grains yourself. Put them in a large ziplock bag and beat them up with a rolling pin. As long as you free the husks and crack the grains a bit, it'll be fine.

[DaBearSox]

Roast them uncrushed. If your only using a pound or two, crush the grains yourself. Put them in a large ziplock bag and beat them up with a rolling pin. As long as you free the husks and crack the grains a bit, it'll be fine.

Yea I was thinkin that its going to be 1-2 lbs so i wasn't sure how much work it would be with a rolling pin...way back when I used a blender to pulverize grain (still doing partial mash)...since my processes were not what they are today I guess i'll never know if the powdered grain hurt my beer in anyway...