Grain Substition
#1
Posted 16 September 2009 - 05:46 AM
#2
Posted 16 September 2009 - 06:03 AM
#3
Posted 16 September 2009 - 06:18 AM
That's probably the closest one to me, so that's where I was planning to go. I also do appreciate the offer.Assuming I can't get exactly what a recipe calls for (in this recipe and others in the future), is there any guide about what can be substituted for what? I mean, I literally know nothing from one grain to the next when it comes to brewing.B&B on on Neiman has a pretty good selection. I've got a pretty good stock too if you need something.
#4
Posted 16 September 2009 - 07:37 AM
I don't recall seeing a chart like that. It would be hard to come up with such a chart because what can be substituted for what varies according to the beer you're making and how far you're willing to stray from the ideal. There are a few grains that are basically the same but go by different names and these can be substituted freely. For example, amber and biscuit malt are the same thing. Special roast is similar to those but is a little darker. C120, Special B and CaraAroma are all very similar if not identical. I know this isn't what you want to hear but I recommend that you read up on different grains and learn for yourself which ones to substitute. Also, if you have specific substitution questions, we can probably answer them for you. If that's more time than you're willing to invest then maybe kits are a better way to go for you.That's probably the closest one to me, so that's where I was planning to go. I also do appreciate the offer.Assuming I can't get exactly what a recipe calls for (in this recipe and others in the future), is there any guide about what can be substituted for what? I mean, I literally know nothing from one grain to the next when it comes to brewing.
#5
Posted 16 September 2009 - 08:05 AM
I don't know of a chart that you can use, but it would be worthwhile to pick up Designing Great Beers by Ray Daniels. He discusses (in a very concise manner) the malting process (or lack of malting in some cases) and attributes each grain brings to a beer. When I am thinking of brewing a new style, I go to this book first.That's probably the closest one to me, so that's where I was planning to go. I also do appreciate the offer.Assuming I can't get exactly what a recipe calls for (in this recipe and others in the future), is there any guide about what can be substituted for what? I mean, I literally know nothing from one grain to the next when it comes to brewing.
#6
Posted 16 September 2009 - 08:15 AM
#7
Posted 16 September 2009 - 08:42 AM
They taste the same to me but I guess YMMV. I know there is Belgian and British biscuit and it's the British one that tastes like amber to me. Victory is more like the Belgian biscuit.Amber and biscuit are the same? I knew biscuit and victory were the same, but thought amber was more "base-malty" than specialty.
#8
Posted 16 September 2009 - 09:00 AM
Good to know.They taste the same to me but I guess YMMV. I know there is Belgian and British biscuit and it's the British one that tastes like amber to me. Victory is more like the Belgian biscuit.
#9
Posted 16 September 2009 - 06:14 PM
Edited by chuck_d, 16 September 2009 - 06:33 PM.
#10
Posted 16 September 2009 - 06:41 PM
Hey Chuck, I'll be at UIC till 3 so feel free to stop by with a growler! Enjoy, you bastardI'm making a study guide for a 3 hour study session at Goose Island tomorrow after class.
#11
Posted 16 September 2009 - 06:53 PM
Hey, I was chatting it up with Randy Mosher the other day over a beer in the stube, and apparently there is a homebrew meeting at Goose Island on the first Thursday I think of every month (maybe Tuesday). I was thinking that might be a good time to meet up with the ChiTowners, but I wanted to confirm the date and stuff before posting up. After this quiz I'll start to get a feel for how much studying I need to do and stuff like that. I think I'm gonna kill this quiz, it's multiple choice. Honestly, I probably just wrote more about specialty malts than will be on the quiz since tomorrow we do hops, and the malting focus was certainly not specialty malts. We covered more on barley breeding than we did on specialty malts. I'll post up here though next week about planning a get together.Hey Chuck, I'll be at UIC till 3 so feel free to stop by with a growler! Enjoy, you bastard
Edited by chuck_d, 16 September 2009 - 06:53 PM.
#12
Posted 16 September 2009 - 07:20 PM
#13
Posted 16 September 2009 - 08:10 PM
Keep it up cd. Love to see a course vicariously. Always appreciate your posts.And to throw a wrench in I always looked at Victory as Special Roast's little brother.That, KSUwildcat is why any list that is out there will be debated, discussed and probably debunked. Throw us the subs you're thinking about and see what some of us think.Okay ready for my detailed response?............
#14
Posted 23 September 2009 - 10:19 AM
#15
Posted 23 September 2009 - 07:29 PM
I guess the question is, acceptable to whom? It's your beer, and I say do what you want to learn what you want. I was at Briess on Monday and they were talking about how with caramel malts you can easily sub closely numbered malts in a very straight forward mathematically way. (like, 2 pounds of caramel 60 = 3 pounds caramel 40). This is especially true for color, but to a lesser degree for flavor (you'll end up with slightly less flavor contribution from the 2 pounds of 60 than you will from the 3 of 40). So if you wanted to substitute I personally would stick within the same classification of specialty malt (see my previous long post) so for amber I'd probably try aromatic malt, and then do the color math. It won't be perfect, but it will get you in the ballpark if not even playing the same position.Now, when it comes to heating your grains in order to simulate amber malt, I think you are going to have a very difficult time for many reasons. The malt has already been dried past the moisture content where it receives the high heat to develop its color and flavor. This color and flavor are the result of Maillard reactions which require the presence the water. Additionally, if you plan on using precrushed malt, the little moisture that is already in your malt is going to be driven off much faster, you'd want to rehydrate it, but controlling that process will be very difficult. Also, amber malt is just a highly kilned color malt, it's never put into the roaster which has the higher temperatures. Sure, it gets pushed up to a kiln-off of 150*C, but it spends 20 minutes closer to 90*C while it still has a fair amount of moisture in it. I think that toasting at home in your oven is probalby best reserved for reproducing roasted malts like biscuit or special roast. All that said, I've never tried to roast or color my own malts. And like I started this post off, acceptable to whom? Try it if you wanna try it, I guarantee you'll learn something, even if it is that you cannot produce amber malt in your over from crushed malt.So back on the topic of Amber malt....My LHBS does not carry it...the one that is about 10 extra miles does...i would rather just toast my own at home but do not have a crusher...would it be acceptable to toast the crushed grain or should I look for a sub/drive the extra 10 miles.
#16
Posted 24 September 2009 - 08:07 AM
Thanks for the great write up...I think my post came out a little vague though...I have toasted grain before from reading randy mosher and ray daniels and I have found it works out very well. One of my favorites is the Fat Tire clone that is posted on the other site that calls for 2 lbs of home toasted Amber malt. I find that (i didn't let it sit for 2 weeks) it gave a great toasted/roasty flavor on top of the biscuit in a recipe like that. When I have toasted before I had access to a crusher...As of now I do not have access so I guess my real question is, Would toasting crushed grains introduce too much color and off flavors?I guess the question is, acceptable to whom? It's your beer, and I say do what you want to learn what you want. I was at Briess on Monday and they were talking about how with caramel malts you can easily sub closely numbered malts in a very straight forward mathematically way. (like, 2 pounds of caramel 60 = 3 pounds caramel 40). This is especially true for color, but to a lesser degree for flavor (you'll end up with slightly less flavor contribution from the 2 pounds of 60 than you will from the 3 of 40). So if you wanted to substitute I personally would stick within the same classification of specialty malt (see my previous long post) so for amber I'd probably try aromatic malt, and then do the color math. It won't be perfect, but it will get you in the ballpark if not even playing the same position.Now, when it comes to heating your grains in order to simulate amber malt, I think you are going to have a very difficult time for many reasons. The malt has already been dried past the moisture content where it receives the high heat to develop its color and flavor. This color and flavor are the result of Maillard reactions which require the presence the water. Additionally, if you plan on using precrushed malt, the little moisture that is already in your malt is going to be driven off much faster, you'd want to rehydrate it, but controlling that process will be very difficult. Also, amber malt is just a highly kilned color malt, it's never put into the roaster which has the higher temperatures. Sure, it gets pushed up to a kiln-off of 150*C, but it spends 20 minutes closer to 90*C while it still has a fair amount of moisture in it. I think that toasting at home in your oven is probalby best reserved for reproducing roasted malts like biscuit or special roast. All that said, I've never tried to roast or color my own malts. And like I started this post off, acceptable to whom? Try it if you wanna try it, I guarantee you'll learn something, even if it is that you cannot produce amber malt in your over from crushed malt.
#17
Posted 24 September 2009 - 08:18 AM
#18
Posted 24 September 2009 - 08:33 AM
Yea I was thinkin that its going to be 1-2 lbs so i wasn't sure how much work it would be with a rolling pin...way back when I used a blender to pulverize grain (still doing partial mash)...since my processes were not what they are today I guess i'll never know if the powdered grain hurt my beer in anyway...Roast them uncrushed. If your only using a pound or two, crush the grains yourself. Put them in a large ziplock bag and beat them up with a rolling pin. As long as you free the husks and crack the grains a bit, it'll be fine.
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