78 replies to this topic

[Steve Urquell]

Brewing this tomorrow. It's what I imagine the Germans would do if they wanted a beer like an APA.

[realbeerguy]

Just me, but Columbus is overwhelming.  I'd use Galena

[dmtaylor]

I'd use a low alpha noble hop for bittering.  You'd be surprised at how much flavor you can still get out of your bittering hops, especially when you need to use more of 'em!!

[Steve Urquell]

Just me, but Columbus is overwhelming.  I'd use Galena

   

I'd use a low alpha noble hop for bittering.  You'd be surprised at how much flavor you can still get out of your bittering hops, especially when you need to use more of 'em!!

I've brewed this recipe as a regular pils(1.5oz Spalt @10min only) ~10X with many diff hop varities as the bittering addition and have noticed no difference except in the amt of hop debris. Used CTZ, Chinook, Amarillo, Hallertauer, Saphir. I know many of you have questioned infusion step mashes in a cooler and the additions needed. I start at 1:1 ratio and just keep adding boiling water if I don't hit my next rest temp. Here's how this one played out using the brewer's friend infusion calculator. https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash/ 1. Target: 132F BF: 11qt @ 146.4F Actual: Correct 2. Target: 144F, BF: 2.4qt boiling (209F for my altitude) Actual: 3.2qts 3. 158F, BF: 4.3qt boiling Actual: 8.5qts

[Big Nake]

I trust Chils on these styles because he makes them all the time. Personally I probably would have bittered with something Noble or maybe Magnum but that's a reflection on my stubbornness and not Chils. I made a nice looking 40-IBU Pils that is now in secondary (I posted the beer in the recipe section under PIVO PILS) and that beer is supposed to be dry hopped with Saphir which I have on hand but I'm not sure I'm going to do that. I would like to bump up my supply of "gold lagers" for warmer weather and that Gambrinus PC strain from Wyeast is calling my name too! Cheers.

[Steve Urquell]

Well this one's in the books. 1.052, wort tastes great. Love me some Spalt Sel. I put my drauflassen volume on the stirplate and will let it sit there for a few hours to kick off, rack and pitch the main wort tomorrow after work. I'll have to do some head scratching at the end of fermentation and decide if I want to dry hop or not.

[Steve Urquell]

I trust Chils on these styles because he makes them all the time. Personally I probably would have bittered with something Noble or maybe Magnum but that's a reflection on my stubbornness and not Chils. I made a nice looking 40-IBU Pils that is now in secondary (I posted the beer in the recipe section under PIVO PILS) and that beer is supposed to be dry hopped with Saphir which I have on hand but I'm not sure I'm going to do that. I would like to bump up my supply of "gold lagers" for warmer weather and that Gambrinus PC strain from Wyeast is calling my name too! Cheers.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Ken. I guess the thing that made my mind up about bittering additions was FWH'ing an American Light Lager with CTZ as the only hop addition. It was an 1.030OG to 1.001FG beer and had absolutely no hop character at all other than the IBUs I wanted(12) It had the CTZ flavor right after fermentation but that went away after lagering and gelling. I think the hop ring in the primary fermenter was the flavor adder. once separated from that no hop flavor at all.

[Big Nake]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Ken. I guess the thing that made my mind up about bittering additions was FWH'ing an American Light Lager with CTZ as the only hop addition. It was an 1.030OG to 1.001FG beer and had absolutely no hop character at all other than the IBUs I wanted(12) It had the CTZ flavor right after fermentation but that went away after lagering and gelling. I think the hop ring in the primary fermenter was the flavor adder. once separated from that no hop flavor at all.

One thing that I'm starting to understand is that if you make a lager and you want there to be some hop character to it when you drink it, it's best to "overhop" it a little (or use more hops than you think you need) because if it's going to lager for some amount of time, you're going to lose a bit of it anyway. I was considering making one with a nice whirlpool addition and either a dry hop or some hops in the primary to boost it. This is less of an issue with ales because they might be served quicker and they're usually hopped up pretty nicely as it is. Also, if it's true that gel strips out some hop character, that's not doing me any favors either.

[Steve Urquell]

One thing that I'm starting to understand is that if you make a lager and you want there to be some hop character to it when you drink it, it's best to "overhop" it a little (or use more hops than you think you need) because if it's going to lager for some amount of time, you're going to lose a bit of it anyway. I was considering making one with a nice whirlpool addition and either a dry hop or some hops in the primary to boost it. This is less of an issue with ales because they might be served quicker and they're usually hopped up pretty nicely as it is. Also, if it's true that gel strips out some hop character, that's not doing me any favors either.

That whirlpool addition is really the key to holding on to hop flavor. I brainfarted on my last IPL and forgot to add it until the wort was ~115F. It has tons of flavor but was missing the resin from the 175F addition. Gel completely stripped the flavor/aroma of a 2oz addition of Saaz leaf to a Bohemian IPL I brewed awhile back. I said that from that point on, I'll take the haze with any beer I want to keep hop character. The Czech pils I posted a pic of in the beer pic thread is not gelled.

[neddles]

That whirlpool addition is really the key to holding on to hop flavor. I brainfarted on my last IPL and forgot to add it until the wort was ~115F. It has tons of flavor but was missing the resin from the 175F addition. Gel completely stripped the flavor/aroma of a 2oz addition of Saaz leaf to a Bohemian IPL I brewed awhile back. I said that from that point on, I'll take the haze with any beer I want to keep hop character. The Czech pils I posted a pic of in the beer pic thread is not gelled.

I know I'm  but this is exactly how I feel. The loss of hop character have experienced with gelatin were dramatic. I have come to expect haze in a fresh dry hopped beer.

 

Would love to drink some of these beers of yours. I would learn a lot about flavors of various hops and yeast a lot quicker than having to wait until I use them myself.

[positiveContact]

I'm not sure I'll ever try spalt.  I brew german styles so infrequently I just don't buy the hops.  in the future my general plan is to use mt. hood.  this beer sounds awesome though.  well done

Edited by Evil_Morty, 01 February 2015 - 10:21 AM.

[Steve Urquell]

I know I'm  but this is exactly how I feel. The loss of hop character have experienced with gelatin were dramatic. I have come to expect haze in a fresh dry hopped beer.   Would love to drink some of these beers of yours. I would learn a lot about flavors of various hops and yeast a lot quicker than having to wait until I use them myself.

Remind me again when I post about this one finishing and we'll do a trade or something. I should have Czech pils, Czech Cerne', Eis IPL, and this one to send although the IPL may be faded. If so, I'll omit it. I'll even send at least 1 bottle conditioned version of the same beer so you can compare BC vs kegged.    

I'm not sure I'll ever try spalt.  I brew german styles so infrequently I just don't buy the hops.  in the future my general plan is to use mt. hood.  this beer sounds awesome though.  well done

Thank you sir!

[neddles]

Remind me again when I post about this one finishing and we'll do a trade or something. I should have Czech pils, Czech Cerne', Eis IPL, and this one to send although the IPL may be faded. If so, I'll omit it. I'll even send at least 1 bottle conditioned version of the same beer so you can compare BC vs kegged.

Great, thank you. This can be arranged! I can only hope to have beer of comparable quality to exchange. Keep me posted.

 

Do you typically bottle condition a few from each batch?

[Steve Urquell]

Great, thank you. This can be arranged! I can only hope to have beer of comparable quality to exchange. Keep me posted.   Do you typically bottle condition a few from each batch?

Yep. All my batches are 7 gallon. I keg a full 5 gals and bottle the rest. End up with 10-15 bottles after losses. Every now and then I look in the fridge and have a nice surprise of a bottle or two of a batch gone bye bye.

[Big Nake]

On the topic of gel and hops... here's something that I did on a beer that I just put on tap this afternoon... it was an APA with Columbus for bittering and then three ounces of late Amarillo in the boil (10, 5, 2 or something). When the beer went to secondary, I gelled it and after sitting there for maybe 2 weeks, I added a muslin bag with 1 ounce of Citra 14.5% pellets for 6 days. Then I racked it to a keg, chilled it overnight and then force carbed it my normal way (48 hours at 25psi) and I grabbed a cobra tap sample this afternoon and it's got an AWESOME hop character. I had an open tap and that tap was going to get this beer or another batch and I put this one on right away knowing that this character won't be around long. So I think you could gel first (would that strip out some of your late additions? Don't know) and then dry hop so there might be a balance between clarity and hopitude. This beer is quite clear but there is some haze, admittedly.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 01 February 2015 - 01:12 PM.

[neddles]

On the topic of gel and hops... here's something that I did on a beer that I just put on tap this afternoon... it was an APA with Columbus for bittering and then three ounces of late Amarillo in the boil (10, 5, 2 or something). When the beer went to secondary, I gelled it and after sitting there for maybe 2 weeks, I added a muslin bag with 1 ounce of Citra 14.5% pellets for 6 days. Then I racked it to a keg, chilled it overnight and then force carbed it my normal way (48 hours at 25psi) and I grabbed a cobra tap sample this afternoon and it's got an AWESOME hop character. I had an open tap and that tap was going to get this beer or another batch and I put this one on right away knowing that this character won't be around long. So I think you could gel first (would that strip out some of your late additions? Don't know) and then dry hop so there might be a balance between clarity and hopitude. This beer is quite clear but there is some haze, admittedly.

That is an unknown to me. But my beers are generally clear if I don't dry hop them save for maybe a bit of chill haze at very cold temps, which usually drops out in a beer I am not as anxious to get drinking as an APA/IPA. In reality, the dry hop haze is far more significant so there really wouldn't be much to gain by gelling before dry hopping for me.

[Big Nake]

That is an unknown to me. But my beers are generally clear if I don't dry hop them save for maybe a bit of chill haze at very cold temps, which usually drops out in a beer I am not as anxious to get drinking as an APA/IPA. In reality, the dry hop haze is far more significant so there really wouldn't be much to gain by gelling before dry hopping for me.

I guess it would depend on how large your dry hop addition is. I'm a huge newbie at dry hopping in general so the gel thing is an unknown to me as well. What I do know is that as I go along, I am much more likely to enjoy a higher-hopped beer than I was years ago so trying to find a good balance between late hops, whirlpool additions and dry hopping is interesting to me. What I don't care for is the idea that a beer with a really nice late-hop kick has a limited lifespan and then idea that some of the keg might be dumped if it's not consumed in a timely manner. Also... Chils: I know we're precariously close to being off-topic here so I apologize if I derailed the thread. The point might be that getting a nice late-hop character in a pilsner could be just the ticket sometimes. Cheers all.

[Steve Urquell]

On the topic of gel and hops... here's something that I did on a beer that I just put on tap this afternoon... it was an APA with Columbus for bittering and then three ounces of late Amarillo in the boil (10, 5, 2 or something). When the beer went to secondary, I gelled it and after sitting there for maybe 2 weeks, I added a muslin bag with 1 ounce of Citra 14.5% pellets for 6 days. Then I racked it to a keg, chilled it overnight and then force carbed it my normal way (48 hours at 25psi) and I grabbed a cobra tap sample this afternoon and it's got an AWESOME hop character. I had an open tap and that tap was going to get this beer or another batch and I put this one on right away knowing that this character won't be around long. So I think you could gel first (would that strip out some of your late additions? Don't know) and then dry hop so there might be a balance between clarity and hopitude. This beer is quite clear but there is some haze, admittedly.

Sounds like a great strategy if you feel that you must gel it. I'm fine with a bit of haziness in a hoppy beer. Here's my IPL after being in the keg for a while. I love clear beer but I'll accept this as clear enough in order to keep the hop flavor and aroma.

[neddles]

What I don't care for is the idea that a beer with a really nice late-hop kick has a limited lifespan and then idea that some of the keg might be dumped if it's not consumed in a timely manner.

My experience isn't that it goes bad it just loses some of its hop mojo. It's usually still very drinkable.  Now oxidation is another story and that can change the hop flavor too, and that can make it a dumper... especially if there's any significant amount of crystal malt involved. I think avoiding O2 pick-up as best as you can in these beers is also critical to longevity.

 

Chil's beer pic above looks like my average dry hopped beer in terms of clarity.

Edited by nettles, 01 February 2015 - 02:19 PM.

[Big Nake]

That looks nice to me. Clear-ish with some haze but good hop character. So as I continue to push the thread further OT... ( ), on this other recipe I posted about from the commercial brewer (Chilly Water), the beer has exceptional late-hop character but it's also VERY clear. I can't remember if he says that they filter the beer or not but you wonder if filtering strips out hop character as well. What would be more likely to strip hops out of a beer... gel solution or a filter?

My experience isn't that it goes bad it just loses some of its hop mojo. It's usually still very drinkable. Now oxidation is another story and that can change the hop flavor too, and that can make it a dumper... especially if there's any significant amount of crystal malt involved. I think avoiding O2 pick-up as best as you can in these beers is also critical to longevity.

On my last few beers that I kegged, I connected the empty, sanitized keg to a CO2 tank and filled it with CO2, emptied it and then racked to it thinking that there might be a benefit to it. I have had the lightest, most-finesse beers go into a keg that was not purged and the beer was great the whole time it was on tap so I'm not convinced yet but it costs you almost nothing and takes no real amount of time so what the hey.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 01 February 2015 - 02:21 PM.