143 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

I know a few of you are big fans so let's consolidate information in one thread.

 

yeast choice seems to be WL833.

[neddles]

In the other thread Denny mentioned a certain published recipe that he used. I'll post the basics of it here for purposes of having a baseline. The original recipe recommends Munich in the 8-12L range which is probably no surprise to this crowd. The recipe is said to "closely mimic" Altbairisch. One question I have for Denny or anyone who's been trying to make this beer is this… With that much Munich in the beer wouldn't be imperative to know which maltster's Munich malt(s) is used by Ayinger in order to replicate the character? Seems like the differences between maltsters munich malts would really stand out in a beer like this, no?

 

6 gallons post boil

OG1.054--->FG 1.014

IBU 22

SRM 19

 

100% Munich

Mash at 154F

3oz. Sinamar or 6oz. Carafa Sp. II (430L)

 

Hallertau @60 

.5oz. Hallertau @20 

 

WLP833

[Big Nake]

When I was over there, I tried a couple of Czech versions in Prague and then Augustiner, Hacker-Pschorr and Hofbrau (not sure that Hofbrau is considered a Dunkel... I think they call it "dark" which is "dunkel" but whatevs) in Munich.  The Augustiner was fantastic and the H-P was a close second.  I didn't have the Ayinger version but I will say this... I would like a solid German/Bavarian Dunkel recipe to try.  Also, I have 2308 which is about to be set up in a starter here and I would assume it would be a reasonable choice.  Also, the Munich malt I see is usually 6L or 10L.  Nettles, are you sure on that 6 ounces of Carafa?  That seems high to me.  I am used to using the dehusked Carafa Special III and 2-3 ounces in 5 gallons creates a pretty dark beer and then throw the Munich 10L in there too.  I grimace at that 154° mash temp too but all systems are different so it might just be an adjustment.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 17 January 2015 - 04:10 PM.

[neddles]

Yes, 6oz. Carafa Special II as published. Also WY2308 is listed second among recommended yeasts for the recipe. Probably because Wyeast's Ayinger strain is Hella Bock and is a seasonal offering. Google "Old Dark Bear" as that's the name of the recipe.

 

Also from the Ayinger website this is a 12.8 plato beer and 5.0% ABV so that suggests it has an OG of 1.052 an FG of 1.0145 according to the online calculator I used.

[Brauer]

 For Ayinger, I think you were on to it with your previous thread that suggested 75% Munich 7 and 25% Pilsner with a couple ounces of Carafa Special (I like Carafa Special II for Dunkels; not as roasty as III, but a little more flavor than I). WLP833 has always got me close to Ayinger, but I've never tried Wy Hella Bock. I've used a mash temp around 150F in my brewery, but I found I had to step beers like this to 158F to get it dry enough bot still keep the right amount of body. I'm not sure if I ever tried this particular beer without the step, because it didn't seem worth wasting the time.

 

 

I think Augustiner needs at least a little Munich 10, probably a good amount, and maybe no Pilsner, but that is the unicorn of Dunkels. HB is definitely a Dunkel, but it is a very different beer than Ayinger or Augistiner, and probably mostly Pilsner.

 

Good luck! This is one of the truly great beers, which can't be duplicated by simply dumping in more hops. 

[neddles]

Also from their website. 5 malts yikes!

 

 

Altbairisch Dark  Lager, dark export beer  Alcohol: 5.0%  Wort: 12.8 °

A deep mahogany color with golden-brown glow that comes exclusively from the malt, is characteristic of this dark export beer. Made in the traditional two-mash method, it is brewed from five kinds of malts. Two of them are dark Spezialmalze that are kiln-dried after old Bavarian tradition.

[positiveContact]

 For Ayinger, I think you were on to it with your previous thread that suggested 75% Munich 7 and 25% Pilsner with a couple ounces of Carafa Special (I like Carafa Special II for Dunkels; not as roasty as III, but a little more flavor than I). WLP833 has always got me close to Ayinger, but I've never tried Wy Hella Bock. I've used a mash temp around 150F in my brewery, but I found I had to step beers like this to 158F to get it dry enough bot still keep the right amount of body. I'm not sure if I ever tried this particular beer without the step, because it didn't seem worth wasting the time.

 

 

I think Augustiner needs at least a little Munich 10, probably a good amount, and maybe no Pilsner, but that is the unicorn of Dunkels. HB is definitely a Dunkel, but it is a very different beer than Ayinger or Augistiner, and probably mostly Pilsner.

 

Good luck! This is one of the truly great beers, which can't be duplicated by simply dumping in more hops. 

 

well it's good to know that my beer taste buds can see what might work - I was using all of my jedi mind powers while drinking it.  what kind of step process do you typically do?  Is it by infusion?  I'm right with you on doing no/tiny sparges so hopefully that would help me here.  what do you think the right IBU is? 

[positiveContact]

what do you guys think is less roasty for my darkening dollar?  carafa special II/III or chocolate wheat?

[Steve Urquell]

what do you guys think is less roasty for my darkening dollar?  carafa special II/III or chocolate wheat?

If you're looking for darkening w/o roast, the Carafa Special will give you little to no roast flavor. I used 5ozs of Breiss 550L dehusked black malt in my Czech Dunkel and it has almost no roast character at all. Less than Warsteiner Dunkel if that gives you a comparison and the beer appears dark brown to black.

I did have an "Oh shit!" moment when tasting on the way to the fermenter. The wort tasted ashy--not good. Most of of that left during fermentation. By the time the D-rest was complete, it had almost no roast character at all. The Carafa is a bit smoother tasting than the Breiss BTW.

[dmtaylor]

Last month for fun I did a whole lotta research for hours on award winning dunkel recipes from various sources.  I figured out the average percentages of each malt, etc.  The result based on research plus my own experience led me to formulate the following recipe that I probably won't brew myself until winter 2015/2016:

 

Meddlin' Dunkles

 

OG=1.052

FG=1.012

ABV=5.2%

IBU=21

SRM=16

 

88% Munich 10

6% Pilsner

4% CaraMunich

2% Carafa III

Hallertauer to hit 21 IBUs (60 minutes only, no late additions)

Wyeast 2206

 

No sparge, so plan on having low efficiency.  Single infusion at 150 F for an hour or maybe 90 minutes.

 

I haven't brewed this yet but if anyone else does, please let me know what you think.

Edited by dmtaylor, 18 January 2015 - 10:28 AM.

[Big Nake]

If you're looking for darkening w/o roast, the Carafa Special will give you little to no roast flavor. I used 5ozs of Breiss 550L dehusked black malt in my Czech Dunkel and it has almost no roast character at all. Less than Warsteiner Dunkel if that gives you a comparison and the beer appears dark brown to black. I did have an "Oh shit!" moment when tasting on the way to the fermenter. The wort tasted ashy--not good. Most of of that left during fermentation. By the time the D-rest was complete, it had almost no roast character at all. The Carafa is a bit smoother tasting than the Breiss BTW.

Looks nice and I am a fan of the dehusked Carafa III. I've been using it in Jamil's Vienna (which will be coming up here soon with 2308) and I agree... dark without 'roast'. Midnight Wheat had been my go-to on this but I like the flavor from the Carafa more. I think the recipe listed above looks pretty good for a first stab although I might even go slightly darker than the listed 16 SRM. I feel like the Augustiner Dunkel walked a very fine line between 'malty' and 'dry' and I also thought that the body walked a fine line between 'satisfying' and 'refreshing'. I thought the Czech versions had more body (and were more opaque) than the slightly thinner, slightly maltier and clearer German versions. With 2308 about to go to work here, I'm going to make a dunkel of some variety without a doubt.

[denny]

In the other thread Denny mentioned a certain published recipe that he used. I'll post the basics of it here for purposes of having a baseline. The original recipe recommends Munich in the 8-12L range which is probably no surprise to this crowd. The recipe is said to "closely mimic" Altbairisch. One question I have for Denny or anyone who's been trying to make this beer is this… With that much Munich in the beer wouldn't be imperative to know which maltster's Munich malt(s) is used by Ayinger in order to replicate the character? Seems like the differences between maltsters munich malts would really stand out in a beer like this, no?

 

6 gallons post boil

OG1.054--->FG 1.014

IBU 22

SRM 19

 

100% Munich

Mash at 154F

3oz. Sinamar or 6oz. Carafa Sp. II (430L)

 

Hallertau @60 

.5oz. Hallertau @20 

 

WLP833

 

I think it might help to know what Munich it is.  Having brewed JZ's BCS recipe twice now, I find that it's vaguely in the ballpark when I do a side by side with Ayinger.  Both batches have seemed a bit thick and dextrinous.  I think next time I'll try lowering the mash temp to the mid-upper 140s and see if that helps.

what do you guys think is less roasty for my darkening dollar?  carafa special II/III or chocolate wheat?

 

Sinamar

[positiveContact]

I think it might help to know what Munich it is.  Having brewed JZ's BCS recipe twice now, I find that it's vaguely in the ballpark when I do a side by side with Ayinger.  Both batches have seemed a bit thick and dextrinous.  I think next time I'll try lowering the mash temp to the mid-upper 140s and see if that helps.

 

Sinamar

 

I've made a dunkel with 100% munich and it seemed a little too heavy compared to ayinger but maybe not.

 

sinamar would work great but in small amounts I haven't found the dehusked grains to provide much roast - also don't feel like ordering anything

Edited by Evil_Morty, 18 January 2015 - 01:19 PM.

[Brauer]

Also from their website. 5 malts yikes!

I suspect that means Pilsner, Munich light and Munich Dark and (guessing here) 2 versions of Carafa. I suppose it would make more sense that there is a small amount of CaraMunich instead of a second Carafa; I'd start with maybe a 2%.

well it's good to know that my beer taste buds can see what might work - I was using all of my jedi mind powers while drinking it.  what kind of step process do you typically do?  Is it by infusion?  I'm right with you on doing no/tiny sparges so hopefully that would help me here.  what do you think the right IBU is? 

I use infusion, which works fine for a step from ~148-150F to 158F.

I shoot for 20-25 IBU.

[positiveContact]

I suspect that means Pilsner, Munich light and Munich Dark and (guessing here) 2 versions of Carafa. I suppose it would make more sense that there is a small amount of CaraMunich instead of a second Carafa; I'd start with maybe a 2%.

I use infusion, which works fine for a step from ~148-150F to 158F.

I shoot for 20-25 IBU.

 

how long is the first rest?

 

the other thing I have to consider is that I typically do extended overnight mashes.  I'm not really sure what this does to my wort sugar profile.  I assume it would have a drying effect on the final beer but I'm not really sure how much.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 19 January 2015 - 06:06 AM.

[positiveContact]

In the other thread Denny mentioned a certain published recipe that he used. I'll post the basics of it here for purposes of having a baseline. The original recipe recommends Munich in the 8-12L range which is probably no surprise to this crowd. The recipe is said to "closely mimic" Altbairisch. One question I have for Denny or anyone who's been trying to make this beer is this… With that much Munich in the beer wouldn't be imperative to know which maltster's Munich malt(s) is used by Ayinger in order to replicate the character? Seems like the differences between maltsters munich malts would really stand out in a beer like this, no?

 

6 gallons post boil

OG1.054--->FG 1.014

IBU 22

SRM 19

 

100% Munich

Mash at 154F

3oz. Sinamar or 6oz. Carafa Sp. II (430L)

 

Hallertau @60 

.5oz. Hallertau @20 

 

WLP833

 

I think it's really important to cut the munich with some pilsner - that's just the sense I got while drinking the beer.  or maybe the munich they use is very different than the best malz munich that I have been using.

[Brauer]

how long is the first rest? the other thing I have to consider is that I typically do extended overnight mashes. I'm not really sure what this does to my wort sugar profile. I assume it would have a drying effect on the final beer but I'm not really sure how much.

About an hour. Probably doesn't apply in your case.

[positiveContact]

About an hour. Probably doesn't apply in your case.

 

perhaps I should just mash a little higher than your first step?  like 154F and just let it ride all night (usually dips down to 140F by morning).

[Brauer]

perhaps I should just mash a little higher than your first step?  like 154F and just let it ride all night (usually dips down to 140F by morning).

I could only guess. I'd probably still mash down near 150F to dry out the Munich Malt.

[positiveContact]

I could only guess. I'd probably still mash down near 150F to dry out the Munich Malt.

 

I've never really understood what the consequences are of different rests in different orders and for different amounts of time.  Do you know if there has been any research done into the effects of different mash temp profiles?