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FestBier (not Oktoberfest)


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#21 Big Nake

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 07:57 AM

Here are highlights from that article...

Helles is still the staple beer of today's average Bavarian, who consumes about 27 gallons annually of just this one beer style. (Compare this to the average American, who drinks "only" about 22 gallons per year of all beer styles combined.) It is also the beer most tourists know from the beer tents of the Munich Oktoberfest. At the world's biggest party, the Helles has long since replaced the traditional, stronger Märzen/Oktoberfest beer as the generic crowd pleaser. I maintain that Helles is arguably the evolutionary epitome of Germany's more than three-thousand-year-old brewing tradition. In terms of sheer brewing artistry, it caps everything that has gone before it. And nothing that has followed it has ever equaled it. The raw materials for Helles could not be simpler, yet the brewing process could not be more demanding. In my book, there is great brewing — of which there is plenty in Germany, especially in Bavaria — and then there is Helles brewing. Nothing short of perfection is the goal of making this Bavarian lager. The brewer must strive for the most sublime balance of subtle, rich, elegant maltiness and lingering, noble hoppiness. Making a Helles is a challenge not just for the adventurous homebrewer; it is a tough assignment even for the trained professional. Helles is a gentle beer, so you must brew it with a gentle, but sure, touch.



#22 Big Nake

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 08:29 AM

The other part that makes me rub my chin is how they say to just use pilsner malt as your only malt. I can't see how one would get good maltiness, round & soft fullness, etc. with just pilsner malt without some high-end mashing process including decoction. I'm just not willing to go there so some Vienna and CaraHell as MTN suggested would have to come into play, IMO. My Oktoberfest Lager (made with 2124) has been in the lager primary fridge at 48° for 16 days now. If I have the chance over the weekend, I'm going to send it to secondary and use the 2124 for this Munich Helles... 7 lbs Best Malz Pils 2 lbs Best Malz Vienna 4 ounces CaraHell 1 ounce Melanoidin ½ ounce Hallertau pellets 4.3% as a FWH 1.1 ounces Hallertau pellets 4.3% for 60 Wyeast 2124 Bohemian Lager Yeast OG: 1.053, FG: 1.013, IBU: 26, SRM 4-5, ABV: 5.2% Single infusion mash at 150° for 60 minutes. All filtered tap water with 3g of CaCl added to the mash. Probably 2ml of lactic acid added to the mash water along with the mineral addition and 1-1.5 ml of acid added to the sparge water. I am noticing that when the pH is kept on track, the final color of the beer is a bit lighter. I think the wort tends to darken in the boil when the pH is off and as a result I have been making some very pale beers and the correct pH is the reason, I believe. This one could come out very nicely. Cheers & thanks to MTN for the inspiration (like I needed it anyway!) :P

Edited by KenLenard, 26 June 2014 - 08:58 AM.


#23 positiveContact

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 09:41 AM

I need to make a beer like that Ken.  But first the bo pils must be made!!!



#24 Big Nake

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 09:57 AM

I need to make a beer like that Ken.  But first the bo pils must be made!!!

Okay, BoPils first and then a helles. You might even be able to use the same yeast. Or not. Also, don't let all of that talk about how it's tough for a homebrewer (and a pro brewer!) to make a helles... just have faith in your skill and your tools and brew it. I have a helles carbing in a keg at the moment and I have no idea how it will be. None. But I'm making another one in case it fizzles or in the case that it's so good I need to have more. Cheers.

#25 positiveContact

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 10:16 AM

Okay, BoPils first and then a helles. You might even be able to use the same yeast. Or not. Also, don't let all of that talk about how it's tough for a homebrewer (and a pro brewer!) to make a helles... just have faith in your skill and your tools and brew it. I have a helles carbing in a keg at the moment and I have no idea how it will be. None. But I'm making another one in case it fizzles or in the case that it's so good I need to have more. Cheers.

 

i'm not afraid - I just have a lot of hops I'd like to use up :P

 

the idea of doing a run of lagers where I don't need much in the way of hops sounds fun though.



#26 neddles

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 10:47 AM

Also, don't let all of that talk about how it's tough for a homebrewer (and a pro brewer!) to make a helles... just have faith in your skill and your tools and brew it. I have a helles carbing in a keg at the moment and I have no idea how it will be. None. But I'm making another one in case it fizzles or in the case that it's so good I need to have more. Cheers.

I think I told you this Ken but I really didn't know the style very well when I made mine. After making one and having a few commercial examples I am really enjoying it. I think it's a very under appreciated style… maybe not on this forum, but in the US in general. What MTN has here looks like something I would enjoy.



#27 Big Nake

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 11:03 AM

I think I told you this Ken but I really didn't know the style very well when I made mine. After making one and having a few commercial examples I am really enjoying it. I think it's a very under appreciated style… maybe not on this forum, but in the US in general. What MTN has here looks like something I would enjoy.

In the BEER forum, I think I posted about New Belgium Summer Helles which is a pretty nice interpretation of the style. Some suggested that it finished sweet which I did not pick up. Ettels, I know you said you made one batch (which I had the pleasure to try) and then another. Was it the same recipe, process, etc. or did you change it up?

#28 neddles

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 11:11 AM

In the BEER forum, I think I posted about New Belgium Summer Helles which is a pretty nice interpretation of the style. Some suggested that it finished sweet which I did not pick up. Ettels, I know you said you made one batch (which I had the pleasure to try) and then another. Was it the same recipe, process, etc. or did you change it up?

Did it again exactly the same way. Wanted to be able to repeat it once before changing anything. Not sure what I would change, maybe try a different yeast just to see the difference, or add a light addition of Hersbrucker at 15 or 20. You tell me what else to try with it!



#29 Big Nake

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 03:02 PM

Did it again exactly the same way. Wanted to be able to repeat it once before changing anything. Not sure what I would change, maybe try a different yeast just to see the difference, or add a light addition of Hersbrucker at 15 or 20. You tell me what else to try with it!

I wouldn't change anything really. Trying different yeast strains is great because the beer is so simple that the character of the different yeasts would come through so you could experience them. 2308, 2206, 2124, 2278, 2782 and even 2000 and 2001 could all be good in that beer.

#30 MtnBrewer

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 03:17 PM

I exchanged a few emails with one of our club members who has been to Oktoberfest. He said the beer is called Wiesn Bier. I asked him what it was like and if it was like a more malty helles and his response was "exactly". He said that Hofbräu Oktoberfest is the closest example he knows of. So I think I'm on the right track with that recipe. I'll probably run it past him and see what he thinks.

#31 neddles

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 04:31 PM

Like this. https://thebeerengin...y-wiesn-marzen/



#32 Big Nake

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 07:18 PM

I exchanged a few emails with one of our club members who has been to Oktoberfest. He said the beer is called Wiesn Bier. I asked him what it was like and if it was like a more malty helles and his response was "exactly". He said that Hofbräu Oktoberfest is the closest example he knows of. So I think I'm on the right track with that recipe. I'll probably run it past him and see what he thinks.

Hofbrau Oktoberfest is delicious and quite pale for an "Oktoberfest"... maybe SRM 5 or so.

#33 dmtaylor

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 08:33 PM

Festbier is a strong helles.  I wouldn't use much specialty malt, just a lot of pilsner malt with maybe 7-8% Carapils for very slight body and sweetness, that's about it.  Too much Vienna or Munich would make it a different style.  Other than that, it's really just a strong helles, with no real hop flavor besides a bit of spicy noble hoppiness that you get from the 60-minute additions as much or more than from late additions.



#34 positiveContact

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 05:10 AM

if I was drinking hofbrauhaus on tap at a bar in chicago (as I did a few years back), what would I be drinking?  it might have been oktoberfest or just the original.  too many beers ago.  I just know it's one of the most delicious lagers I've ever had.  I'm sure the whole experience makes my memory of it fonder than reality.



#35 Big Nake

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 06:16 AM

if I was drinking hofbrauhaus on tap at a bar in chicago (as I did a few years back), what would I be drinking?  it might have been oktoberfest or just the original.  too many beers ago.  I just know it's one of the most delicious lagers I've ever had.  I'm sure the whole experience makes my memory of it fonder than reality.

It was probably Hofbrau Original which is a helles. Was it gold or did it have some color to it? When I was at the Hofbrauhaus in Munich, it was "light" or "dark" which meant helles or dunkel (the German words for light and dark?) and the helles was great, as always and although the dunkel was good, I had better examples while I was there.

#36 positiveContact

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 06:58 AM

It was probably Hofbrau Original which is a helles. Was it gold or did it have some color to it? When I was at the Hofbrauhaus in Munich, it was "light" or "dark" which meant helles or dunkel (the German words for light and dark?) and the helles was great, as always and although the dunkel was good, I had better examples while I was there.

 

it was a pretty dimly lit room.  I think it might have had a little color so perhaps the o'fest.



#37 MtnBrewer

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 08:45 AM

Festbier is a strong helles.  I wouldn't use much specialty malt, just a lot of pilsner malt with maybe 7-8% Carapils for very slight body and sweetness, that's about it.  Too much Vienna or Munich would make it a different style.  Other than that, it's really just a strong helles, with no real hop flavor besides a bit of spicy noble hoppiness that you get from the 60-minute additions as much or more than from late additions.

Thanks. So I dialed back the malts. Now I've got roughly 80% pils, 15% Vienna and 5% CaraHell. Did I go far enough? I could 86 the Vienna altogether but John's assessment that it's maltier than a helles make me want to keep it. I could also swap CaraFoam for CaraHell. So far I haven't made any changes to the hops but I might need to rein them in as well.

#38 johnpreuss

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 01:00 PM

So did you brew this?

 

If so what was the final recipe?



#39 Big Nake

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 01:47 PM

This might be the first really good helles I have made. I think MTN's vision of a "Festbier" was bigger than mine but I just put this keg on tap this afternoon and I am out in the backyard listening to some tunes (interspersed with the Cubs game) and the beer really came out excellent. Good color, good clarity, rich & malty mouthfeel, relatively dry finish and a very satisfying gold beer for sure. I can post the recipe but mine is probably only a 5.0% to maybe 5.3% beer so possibly a bit small for the original thinking here.

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#40 Big Nake

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 01:55 PM

Here, does this help?

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