77 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

I am making some very clear beers across the color spectrum. All of these have been clear at room temp and most of these are clear at serving temp too. But on the occasion that the beer is not superclear when it's cold, it's always crystal clear when it warms up a little bit. So... what would contribute to the beer clouding up only when it's cold? We have talked about getting mash, sparge and kettle pH correct, using enough calcium in the mash, strong boils, whirfloc, etc. Which of these things might be the culprit on chill haze alone? Something about tannins reacting with proteins? I kegged a batch of Kolsch yesterday that had been sitting crystal clear in a secondary on my basement floor. 2565 is a notoriously low-floccer but I have always gotten it to drop clear. The beer going into the keg was crystal clear. I chilled it and I'm carbing it now and my guess is that it will have some amount of cloudiness to it when I sample it cold. Thoughts?

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

Don't you use gelatin? Make sure the beer is colder than serving temp when you gel it and your haze should be gone.

[Big Nake]

Don't you use gelatin? Make sure the beer is colder than serving temp when you gel it and your haze should be gone.

Yeah, good point. I do use gel on every batch but it's when the beer is room temp and on it's way to secondary. I did add some gel solution to a few beers after they were cold and I believe it did help but I think I may have been thinking that it was just a Band-Aid for some other part of my process that I wasn't doing right. My darker beers are almost always UBER-CLEAR and my pale beers are kind of hit and miss. I guess I attribute that to pH but now I'm hitting my pH numbers very nicely across the board so ALL the various colors should be clear. Adding gel to the cold, kegged pale beers should solve the issue and is easy enough to do. Cheers to bringing that idea back up.

[MtnBrewer]

If gelatin isn't doing it for you, you might also try PVPP (or Polyclar). The combination of these two is the nuclear option of clarifiers.

 

ETA: and yes, you should use gel when the beer is below 50°F.

[SchwanzBrewer]

The chill haze won't come out with gelatin or any fining unless it's cold enough for the proteins to precipitate out and adhere to the gel. 

[Big Nake]

Yeah, I was on this road before and I should have stayed on it. I have some pale beers coming down the pipeline and I plan to gel them when they're cold and see if it helps. Thanks gang.

[positiveContact]

are you still having issues since recent changes you've made to your sparge acidification process?

[Big Nake]

are you still having issues since recent changes you've made to your sparge acidification process?

Some of the beers coming up right now were made when my process was "getting there" but not perfect. For example, you may remember that BNW was suggesting more acid than I really needed and some of these beers on tap now probably had a mash pH under 5.0. Eventually I corrected that and made a number of beers where the mash pH was more in the 5.2 to 5.4 range. This latest batch of Kolsch was made during my "more confident" phase of mash, sparge and kettle pH. I assume the lower-than-desired pH could cause some cosmetic issues as well... good point.

[Big Nake]

Ladies: So we talked about some good ways to remove the haze (gel when the beer is colder, I could see this Biofine stuff, etc) but does anyone know if there is anything I can do during my process to keep the haze down? I have a pale beer on tap right now that has some brutal chill haze. This is not sediment because as soon as the beer gets a little warmer, it's beautifully clear. But when you first tap it, it seriously looks like apple sauce. I had my sprinkler guy at my house today and he always, always asks for a beer or two when he comes over... even if it's in the morning. He asked for a beer and I tapped a clear, plastic 16oz cup of this German Pils (2308) I have and it was all cloudy. I handed it to him and he looked at it like "hmm..." and took a big sip and said, "Ooh, that's good". I came back 5 minutes later and the cup was empty and then he asked for another one. He drank that one a little slower and by the time the cup was 25% full, I could see the beer was really clear. So what can I do to PREVENT chill haze as opposed to just treat it? Or is there no good answer to that?

[SchwanzBrewer]

Cold filtering I suspect. Also, I think reducing the tannin uptake will reduce chill haze formation. I'd have to look it up in a book to verify that.

Edited by SchwanzBrewer, 09 July 2014 - 01:53 PM.

[positiveContact]

you probably have the pH thing pretty well under control which would reduce the tannins as rich mentioned.

 

I'm not sure if vigorous boil is a factor.  There must be some literature with a list of chill haze sources.  I mean - I know it's the grain but I'm talking sources in the process.

[MtnBrewer]

Maybe a protein rest? I mostly agree with Denny that it's not necessary but I use a lot of German & Belgian pils malt and I'm not convinced that it wouldn't benefit from a protein rest. I have a German pilsner too that is cloudy as hell. Tastes just fine but looks like a hefeweizen. I didn't add any salts to the water like I usually do and my calcium is low so I'm thinking that was a factor also.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Good hot break, not getting hot break in the fermenter, proper PH, using lower protein malts...

[Big Nake]

I do boil vigorously, get good hot break (skim the foam off in the brewpot), quick chill, rack from brewpot to primary leaving most of the schputz behind and get mostly clear wort into the primary. This pilsner was on the edge of my pH practices and may not have been one of the beers I was more confident about but I still think the pH part (mash, sparge, kettle) was good on this batch. I did just read about doing a rest anywhere between 113° and 140° (mentioned in a BYO article called Conquering Chill Haze!) but most of the stuff I'm already doing. I use Best Malz Pils for beers like this... not sure if it's a high or low protein malt. I would have to check my notes but my guess is that my Ca was around 50ppm on this batch. On some of my 100% filtered tap water beers, my calcium is maybe mid-60s because I'm not lowering the Ca with dilution. I wonder if boosting calcium would help fend off the haze. MTN, your description sounds like mine... cloudy as hell. But I know it's chill haze because it's beautiful if it warms up a bit.

[MtnBrewer]

I wonder if boosting calcium would help fend off the haze. MTN, your description sounds like mine... cloudy as hell. But I know it's chill haze because it's beautiful if it warms up a bit.

Same here. For most of my recent batches, I have been adding 50-75 ppm calcium minimum even if it's not needed for pH reasons and my beers have been the clearest they've ever been. For this batch, I didn't want a minerally taste so I adjusted pH with lactic acid instead of adding calcium.Best Malz pils malt is very high in protein. That really applies to any continental pils malt. I use a lot of Best and MFB pils and for the next batch or two with those malts I'm going to throw in a protein rest at about 131°F to see if that helps.

[neddles]

Same here. For most of my recent batches, I have been adding 50-75 ppm calcium minimum even if it's not needed for pH reasons and my beers have been the clearest they've ever been. For this batch, I didn't want a minerally taste so I adjusted pH with lactic acid instead of adding calcium.Best Malz pils malt is very high in protein. That really applies to any continental pils malt. I use a lot of Best and MFB pils and for the next batch or two with those malts I'm going to throw in a protein rest at about 131°F to see if that helps.

My N=1. I have made two batches of Helles in the last few months with Best Malz Pils and a single infusion mash. Both received 1/2t. gelatin in the keg after being chilled to 33-34F Neither had a hint of chill haze.

 

ETA: Should also add that both had 50ppm calcium and were fermented with WY2308 FWIW.

Edited by ettels4, 09 July 2014 - 02:56 PM.

[BlKtRe]

I feel like I'm doing something wrong if I don't cold condition. In secondary if all possible on all beers. I just don't feel good about conditioning at room temps.

[neddles]

I feel like I'm doing something wrong if I don't cold condition. In secondary if all possible on all beers. I just don't feel good about conditioning at room temps.

I remember Basser saying once that the beer should be conditioned as cold as you can possibly get it. The colder the better, obviously without freezing.

[positiveContact]

Good hot break, not getting hot break in the fermenter, proper PH, using lower protein malts...

 

i've never skimmed hot break and as of late I've made pretty much zero attempt to avoid getting it into my fermentor.  the non-wheat/oatmeal stuff has been nice clear beers (until I dry hop them ).

[Big Nake]

Ettels: Your helles was very clear. I know you said it was close to the end of the keg which always seems to result in clearer beer for me so maybe that was part of it. Was you helles uber-clear at the beginning of the keg? It will be interesting to see if my Pils will be clearer as the keg gets lighter. I guess I'm frustrated by this because this pH and bicarb-neutralized-by-acid revelation has been a very exciting advancement in my pale beers but if clarity doesn't fall in line... that's going to be an issue. And what is so funny is that I almost never have this issue on amber or darker beers. That alone suggests something in the pH realm because darker beers lower pH. I dunno. I'm not going to filter my beer, that's for sure. I'll keep an eye on this as some of these other beers come to the taps. I have a Czech Pils (2278) and also a helles (2124) in the on-deck fridge, both pale obviously. Cheers and thanks to the Beerheads... I toast a glass of semi-cloudy yet delicious pilsner in your honor.Ps. I added an ounce of Hallertau Select pellets in a muslin bag to the keg a few days ago. It's made the most delicious difference in the beer but could it be contributing to the haze too? Again... clear when it warms up.