10 replies to this topic

[robsauce]

Well, I spoke with a local orchard and the owner is willing to sell me some of their cider before it is sent off for pasteurization. I'm wondering if there are any specifics I should ask about their apples, cider, pressing/crushing, etc. Here is their site outlining the cider they usually make. Obviously, I'd be getting my hands on fresh pressed and chilled cider. The owner said in about 3-4 weeks their apples should be ready and in prime cider making condition. https://www.petrofka...appleCider.htmlAlso, is there anything I need to worry about in doing a naturally fermented cider? From all of ScottS's posts it sounds like I just toss the juice into a bucket and let'r buck. Is there anything I can do to ensure or encourage a natural fermentation and to ensure that the yeasts ferment and go to town on my sweet sweet applejuice? Also, other then ensuring everything is sanitized, how does one ensure any bacteria that was present during the crushing doesn't take over as opposed to the yeast? And, the final question, I read up on making apple cider vinegar and it sounds like the process is pretty much identical to ScottS's cider FAQ post. Is the difference that the vinegar would be aged in an open air environment where a cider is aged in a closed (airlock) environment?TIA!

[ScottS]

Also, is there anything I need to worry about in doing a naturally fermented cider? From all of ScottS's posts it sounds like I just toss the juice into a bucket and let'r buck.

That's all I ever do. Turns out great. Every time.

Is there anything I can do to ensure or encourage a natural fermentation and to ensure that the yeasts ferment and go to town on my sweet sweet applejuice?

The yeast is there, it'll do it's thing. No encouragement necessary.

Also, other then ensuring everything is sanitized, how does one ensure any bacteria that was present during the crushing doesn't take over as opposed to the yeast?

I don't think so. It's a wild fermentation, so there is always a risk of contamination. I don't really know what you can do about it though, other than hope that the press was clean.

And, the final question, I read up on making apple cider vinegar and it sounds like the process is pretty much identical to ScottS's cider FAQ post. Is the difference that the vinegar would be aged in an open air environment where a cider is aged in a closed (airlock) environment?

I've never done vinegar, but I believe you are correct. To get vinegar you've got to get acetobacter in there somehow, either through the air or by pitching some. My fear has always been that the orchard might press substandard fruit with aceobacter already present, and that it'll be in the juice in sufficient quantities to turn my cider to vinegar. But it's never actually happened to me, so I don't consider it to be much of a risk.Like I said, it's a wild fermentation, so there is always a risk. I've done probably 10 batches of wild fermented cider so far, and every single one has turned out perfect. So I don't have a good feel for how big the risks are compared to a traditional sanitized and well controlled fermentation. But I can say with some confidence that at least for my sources of cider, the juice is pretty clean and the risks are fairly low.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

So what do you guys do with your cider when it's done fermenting? Bottles? Kegs? Do you carb it?

[ScottS]

Kegs, though I've bottled in the past. I do carb it.

[japh]

I've never done vinegar, but I believe you are correct. To get vinegar you've got to get acetobacter in there somehow, either through the air or by pitching some. My fear has always been that the orchard might press substandard fruit with aceobacter already present, and that it'll be in the juice in sufficient quantities to turn my cider to vinegar. But it's never actually happened to me, so I don't consider it to be much of a risk.

Acetobacter also needs oxygen in order to metabolize alcohol, so if you get a good CO₂ blanket on there from fermentation, and then do a good job keeping it away from air, then you won't have to worry overmuch about acetobacter.

[robsauce]

Local orchard just got back to me. Does $20/imp. gallon (4.5L) sound reasonable for unpasturized cider? That would leave me needing 6 imp. gallons and thus a batch would cost me $120 total.

[ScottS]

$20 a gallon is insane. That's 3 times the going rate around here.

[Genesee Ted]

$20 is completely unreasonable.

[robsauce]

Glad you guys think so. My previous e-mail conversations with Mike from the orchard:

Mike: Our apples are very good quality again this year and we are making cider 2 days a week. Within a few days I will be able to let you know the exact date that we will make cider again and you will have to pick it up within 4 or 5 days past that date. An Imperial gallon is 2.5 litre. We need $20.00 per gallon for the cider because it take 30 lbs. of apples to make a gallon of cider.

Me: Just to clarify price per gallon, you stated below that an imperial gallon is 2.5L when in fact it is 4.5. Was that just a typo? Assuming it was, you are charging $20 for 4.5L, correct? That seems extremely pricey and much more than I was looking to spend. Ideally I would need 6 gallons which would run me $120. Any chance you are willing to move on that price given the fact that I am purchasing such a large quantity?

Mike: Yes it was a typo mistake. Quotes: Extremely pricey...much more than I was looking to spend...Mike Noel and Petrofka Bridge Orchard don't think that 6 gallons are a large quantity since we doing hundreds of gallons per year. Please be advised that we are no longer interested to sell you any cider at this time.

WTF???

[Wayne B]

Run fast, and stay far away. They're interested in selling to the "boutique" gourmet market. You're obviously not either willing to pay the idiot consumer rate, or willing to buy in enough bulk to make wholesaling worth their time.

[robsauce]

Yea, I believe they crush and press it themselves then send it off to be pasteurized and bottled which I what you see in the picture.