23 replies to this topic

[DubbelEntendre]

What's the deal? I want flavor and aroma. I can get bitter, but flavor and aroma are seriously lacking. It's not carbed up yet, as I'm currently dry hopping, but I used all Cascade and Amarillo late and there NO citrus flavor to be had. I can't figure this out. I've never made a good IPA and the streak continues. Please help me diagnose this.

[gnef]

what is your water profile?What is your recipe?How old are your hops, and how have they been stored?

[Pseudolus]

Are you cooling your wort pretty quickly?Are you doing full boils?

[MtnBrewer]

Instead of us playing 20 questions Dubbel, why don't you tell us how you've been making your IPAs and that will save us a lot of time.

[DubbelEntendre]

what is your water profile?What is your recipe?How old are your hops, and how have they been stored?

I don't know my water profile.8.00 - Pale Malt (2 Row) UK2.00 - Munich Malt1.50 - Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L0.75 - Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L0.75 - Victory Malt0.75 - Wheat Malt, AmericanFWH - 1.0 oz 14.2% Columbus Pellets60 min - 1.0 oz 15.8% Warrior Pellets20 min - 1.0 oz 7.5% Amarillo Pellets20 min - 1.0 oz 8.7% Cascade Leaf10 min - 1.0 oz 7.5% Amarillo Pellets10 min - 1.0 oz 8.7% Cascade Leaf1 min - 2.0 oz 7.5% Amarillo Pellets5 GalsOG 1.056FG 1.010Hops were used within 3 days of purchasing from the LHBS all vacuum packed and stored cold.

[Salsgebom]

+1 on the previous posts.When I worked at the LHBS and saw tons of IPA recipes brought in by customers, I frequently saw hop schedules way too heavy on early additions with hardly any late addition... or simply too little hops altogether. The best IPAs I've brewed have been at least 1.060 OG and 50-60 IBU. 3/4 or more of the IBUs come from the 15-0min additions with a total of 6-9oz American hops per 6gal.

[DubbelEntendre]

Instead of us playing 20 questions Dubbel, why don't you tell us how you've been making your IPAs and that will save us a lot of time.

I like 20 questions. I was just frustrated when I posted I know I should have included more information, but I'm not sure what to include. I'm doing full wort boils and cooling times are between 15 mins and 30 mins depending on how cold the ground water is. 60 - 90 min mash typically 151-154 depending how what I'm going for. I'll recirculate until clearCollect wortBatch SpargeRecirculateCollect wortStart burner60 min Bittering AdditionThen I'll play around with late additions in the 20-Flameout range.

[djinkc]

I've been trying to add more flavor/aroma to the appropriate beers lately. The bulk of my hop additions and probably around 40% of the IBUs were 20 minutes and after in those. It's getting closer to what I want. I think for aroma you really need to add at flameout or later. Dry hopping will do much better though for aroma IMO.

Edited by dj in kc, 24 August 2009 - 03:58 PM.

[Pseudolus]

Amarillo and cascade are both fairly mellow (as American IPA hops go). If you want some more punch, replace or supplement them with a more aggressive hop. Chinook, columbus, simcoe - stuff like that.It is surprising, though, that with 4 oz of amarillo/cascade in the last 10 minutes you are finding "NO citrus flavor". Have you given some of your beers to other brewers? What do they think of it?

[al_bob]

I'm becoming convinced that kettle hops just aren't that effective on fresh aroma and taste. I really think it comes from some sort of dry hopping and hop backing or similar. I crush mine up real good and add them to dry hop for only 5 days, often, and get great flavor and aroma. I'm practicing now on lowering my boil hops to moderate levels (as long as it's bitter!) and use a lot in the dry hop. Your recipe looks like a lot of hops for a 1.050 beer. Balance is the key to the IPA and it is harder to perfect than you would think! I love the challenge. I love the IPA!

[Slainte]

+1 on the previous posts.When I worked at the LHBS and saw tons of IPA recipes brought in by customers, I frequently saw hop schedules way too heavy on early additions with hardly any late addition... or simply too little hops altogether. The best IPAs I've brewed have been at least 1.060 OG and 50-60 IBU. 3/4 or more of the IBUs come from the 15-0min additions with a total of 6-9oz American hops per 6gal.

Agreed with this.Also, yeasty beer dampens hop flavor. And flat beer won't bring it out enough.Fast chilling is needed. Full boil as well.And DubbelEntendre. That recipe needs more late hops.

[MtnBrewer]

I pretty much agree with what's been said. A couple of things jump out at me. One is that there is way too much crystal in that recipe, especially if you're mashing up to 154. The sweetness from the crystal will tend to mask hop flavor and bitterness. Also, I would move the late hop additions (from 20 minutes on) even later. Change the 20 to 15 or 10 and change the 10 to 5 or flameout. I think flameout additions are very helpful in getting a strong hop aroma. I've even waited until the wort has partially cooled before adding them. One last thing, that OG is low for an IPA. You probably need around 1.065 or so.

[jayb151]

I agree that you REALLY need to cut down the crystal. I would go with about a half lbs per 5 gal. Also, are those really the numbers you measured for you gravities? I would think that much malt would yield higher numbers. I also think something you can do is increase the FWH and late additions. I do almost all my American beers with FWHs and they turn out with much more flavor than previously. I calculate my FWHs as 30 minute additions because thats what they seem like on my system. I ussually use a FWH as my "bittering" addition and skip the 60 minute, and just keep adding those late additions. I also agree that dry hoping is another great way to add aroma/flavor. Although I'm not sure about crushing the hops. If they're pellets they are already pretty ground up, and I think any more can lead to clarity problems later. One last thing, When/if you dry hop, consider getting the yeast out of the beer, the yeasts wall will become covered in the hop oils and take the oils out of the beers, thats not where you want the oils!JayB

[Thirsty]

I just recently tried some multiple additions of dryhopping as well. With the IPAs you are right bittering is easy, but not getting a grassy hop flavor dryhopping can be tricky. I now do as previously posted mostly all late (5 minutes - flameout), primary, transfer to secondary and clear, then transfer to keg, dryhop 5 days with one variety (2-3 oz) then dryhop with a second variety (1-2 oz) for another 5-7days so the original dose gets 10-14 days total. Yank the hops (whole in loose muslin bags) out of the keg. cool and carb. If you dont keg you can do all that in the secondary. But my last batch got some tasting from some non-educated folk this weekend, and all those said- wow this is a great fruity summer beer- tons of grapefruit and orange. That made me happy, they had no idea. Oh yeah and to echo mtn and jayb way too much crystal. Even the munich is not necessary. Showcase those hops. Even for a DIPA I like to keep the crystal under 1 # and usually use a light roast like a aromatic or melanoidin for some color, but very little .5# or so. You may also benefit in some adjunct suugar as well, for IPAs I usually use 2# of corn sugar in a 13 gallon batch, so for your 5.5 gallons, a # might give you a nice dry finish.

[djinkc]

I will stick by loading up the late hops. Was rushing to post before my end of the day crazy time started. I agree that there is way too much crystal like the others, just in case you didn't get the message

[cavman]

The new thing for adding hop flavor and aroma is adding a large flameout addition and not cooling for an hour +. Been on podcasts as well as at this years Craft Brewer's Conference multiple Rock Bottoms used the same recipe with different hop schedules to test it and the delayed chill was a hands down winner. I just brewed one this way Saturday with 2.5 oz of centennials at flameout in a 1.040 bitter, I'll report back with results when ready.Oh yeah and no more than .75# Crystals per 5 gallons in my mind.

[Stout_fan]

I'm with mountain on the Xtal overload.Also brewing water.After many years of brewing spectacular stouts and iffy IPA's I bugged the municipal water authorities and received my water report. The lady who emailed me the data was very helpful.Ask nice, say please and thank you (obvious, I know) and generally they're pleased as punch to have something out of the ordinary in their day and will go out of their way to help you.Plugging my water into Palmer's spreadsheet typified my water's chloride to sulfate ratio as Very Malty.Salt additions got me where I needed to be.You could also be suffering from same.Just a thought.

[Pseudolus]

The new thing for adding hop flavor and aroma is adding a large flameout addition and not cooling for an hour +. Been on podcasts as well as at this years Craft Brewer's Conference

Huh. Hadn't heard that one. I guess it all depends on the various rates that things happen to hops (isomerization, breakdown/explusion of flavor and aroma compounds) at different temps. Nifty.Do you happen to recall on what podcast you heard this discussed? I generally listen to the BN ones and Basic Brewing, but I've missed a few.

[BrewerGeorge]

The new thing for adding hop flavor and aroma is adding a large flameout addition and not cooling for an hour +. Been on podcasts as well as at this years Craft Brewer's Conference ...

Huh. Hadn't heard that one. I guess it all depends on the various rates that things happen to hops (isomerization, breakdown/explusion of flavor and aroma compounds) at different temps. Nifty.Do you happen to recall on what podcast you heard this discussed? I generally listen to the BN ones and Basic Brewing, but I've missed a few.

Really? That is surprising. Sounds like a recipe for DMS to me. (I obviously haven't tried it, so nobody should take this as condemnation of the technique. I'm just discussing.)

[Pseudolus]

I would think the DMS issue would depend on your malt bill and boil length. 45-min boil and 100% pils? Problem. 90-min boil and 100% munich? No problem. The point in between where DMS becomes noticeable? Your guess is as good as mine.