34 replies to this topic

[chadm75]

Makes your beer smell like green olives.

 

First time I had tried "yeast washing" and should've put it on the stir plate prior to pitching.  

 

Damn.

[denny]

Don't waste your time washing (more appropriately, "rinsing") your yeast.  It's a PITA and an added risk of infection with no appreciable benefits IMO.

[chadm75]

Don't waste your time washing (more appropriately, "rinsing") your yeast. It's a PITA and an added risk of infection with no appreciable benefits IMO.

Are you better off pitching directly onto the yeast cake?

[johnpreuss]

Are you better off pitching directly onto the yeast cake?

That is what I do. Well I harvest a quart of it and pitch in a clean fermenter.

Edited by johnpreuss, 01 December 2013 - 12:42 PM.

[Big Nake]

Does this have to do with higher gravity beers? I occasionally pitch directly from an Activator for 5% (ish) ales and typically make small (650ml of water + ½ cup DME) starters for lagers on a stirplate and then pitch when that is active. I'm sure this would be considered woefully short on volume of yeast but I just did this with some MAY 2013 White Labs 830 and it started right up on the stirplate and I had good activity after oxygenating and pitching... bubbling in the primary in about 4 hours.

Edited by KenLenard, 01 December 2013 - 12:45 PM.

[denny]

Are you better off pitching directly onto the yeast cake?

 

Almost always, you're better off not using the entire slurry from a previous batch.  I simply pour the slurry into 2-3 sanitized containers so I end up using 1/2=1/3 of the slurry from a 5 gal. batch for the next 5 gal. batch.

[denny]

Does this have to do with higher gravity beers? I occasionally pitch directly from an Activator for 5% (ish) ales and typically make small (650ml of water + ½ cup DME) starters for lagers on a stirplate and then pitch when that is active. I'm sure this would be considered woefully short on volume of yeast but I just did this with some MAY 2013 White Labs 830 and it started right up on the stirplate and I had good activity after oxygenating and pitching... bubbling in the primary in about 4 hours.

 

Wow, based on what I know I'd never make a starter that small for an ale, let alone a lager.  I just mad a 5 qt. starter for a 1.050 German pils.  But let your results be your guide.

[chadm75]

Does this have to do with higher gravity beers? I occasionally pitch directly from an Activator for 5% (ish) ales and typically make small (650ml of water + ½ cup DME) starters for lagers on a stirplate and then pitch when that is active. I'm sure this would be considered woefully short on volume of yeast but I just did this with some MAY 2013 White Labs 830 and it started right up on the stirplate and I had good activity after oxygenating and pitching... bubbling in the primary in about 4 hours.

 

Nope, my Christmas Ale (6% ABV).  Had to toss it down the drain….undrinkable.  

 

I knew I had a problem when my 1056 didn't take off within 24 hours.  It was almost 36 hours until I saw activity in the fermenter.  And even then, it wasn't a vigorous fermentation.  I think I will put everything on the stir plate unless it's been less than 48 hours since harvesting.  

 

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It doesn't sound like you guys are washing/rinsing your yeast.  How are you removing trub?

[MakeMeHoppy]

 

It doesn't sound like you guys are washing/rinsing your yeast.  How are you removing trub?

  I do like what Denny said. I rack a finished beer to a keg and then leave a little beer in the carboy. I rouse the yeast and then fill a 1 liter soda bottle and put that in the fridge. Whatever trub I get settles to the bottom, then the yeast and then clear beer. On the next brew day I carefully decant most of the clear beer and then rouse the yeast and pitch that trying to leave all/most of whatever trub I can behind.

[chadm75]

  I do like what Denny said. I rack a finished beer to a keg and then leave a little beer in the carboy. I rouse the yeast and then fill a 1 liter soda bottle and put that in the fridge. Whatever trub I get settles to the bottom, then the yeast and then clear beer. On the next brew day I carefully decant most of the clear beer and then rouse the yeast and pitch that trying to leave all/most of whatever trub I can behind.

 

When you say…"rouse the yeast", what does that mean?

[Big Nake]

I have to say that this is one of those "blind" areas for me. You guys know I like to have my finger on things (water, mash pH, etc) and the amount of yeast I pitch is a little blind still. But I have to say that pitching from an active Wyeast pack (fully bloated... rock hard) with a good shot of pure O2 has produced excellent ales for me. On subsequent batches I pitch a good 200ml of slurry from the previous primary. On the lagers, I don't pitch from vials or Activators but my starters are smallish. I use yeast nutrient and O2 in the starter and I pitch the starter when it's active with more pure O2 in the primary with good results. If there are problems with these beers, flavorwise... I cannot detect them at all and you guys just KNOW that I would be complaining about it if I could.

Edited by KenLenard, 01 December 2013 - 03:55 PM.

[MakeMeHoppy]

When you say…"rouse the yeast", what does that mean?

swirl the liquid gently to get the yeast layer on top into solution leaving the trub behind.

Edited by MakeMeHoppy, 01 December 2013 - 03:57 PM.

[Big Nake]

There is a lot of language on the Activator pack about how it's designed to be directly pitched into 5 gallons of well-oxygenated wort (up to 1.060) and how you would get the same pitching rate suggested by professional brewers. I don't pretend to know if that's right or not but that's what it says. I still don't do that for lagers but one fresh Activator into ales is something I have done many times with no issues.

Edited by KenLenard, 01 December 2013 - 04:20 PM.

[positiveContact]

There is a lot of language on the Activator pack about how it's designed to be directly pitched into 5 gallons of well-oxygenated wort (up to 1.060) and how you would get the same pitching rate suggested by professional brewers. I don't pretend to know if that's right or not but that's what it says. I still don't do that for lagers but one fresh Activator into ales is something I have done many times with no issues.

 

according to yeastcalc you generally need to make starters for 5 gallon batches.  generally a 1L starter would take care of most 5 gallon ales.  for lagers it's more like 2-2.5L.  this is all assuming a really fresh pack of yeast (starting with 90+B cells).

[Big Nake]

according to yeastcalc you generally need to make starters for 5 gallon batches.  generally a 1L starter would take care of most 5 gallon ales.  for lagers it's more like 2-2.5L.  this is all assuming a really fresh pack of yeast (starting with 90+B cells).

But the point I'm making is that this is what the yeast's packaging suggests so either brewers are making things more complicated for no reason, the packaging verbage is not clear or misleading or I'm not getting something. If the amount of yeast inside a fresh activator is not enough to directly inoculate 5 gallons of well-oxygenated wort that is at 1.060 or lower then I would like to know why Wyeast has that on the packaging. I suppose there could be different opinions but then would you not trust the opinion of the people who manufacture the yeast? Also, I would never do this with a White Labs vial because I can never get a feel for the health of the yeast. With Wyeast, if I see the package swell up rock hard and it's relatively quick, I assume it's ready to roll and I pitch into well-oxygenated wort. The vials seem more dicey so I make a starter. Also, my goal is good beer. I would never take a short cut which resulted in less-than-stellar beer. I wouldn't want to make things more complicated for no reason.

Edited by KenLenard, 01 December 2013 - 05:25 PM.

[davelew]

But the point I'm making is that this is what the yeast's packaging suggests so either brewers are making things more complicated for no reason, the packaging verbage is not clear or misleading or I'm not getting something. If the amount of yeast inside a fresh activator is not enough to directly inoculate 5 gallons of well-oxygenated wort that is at 1.060 or lower then I would like to know why Wyeast has that on the packaging. I suppose there could be different opinions but then would you not trust the opinion of the people who manufacture the yeast? Also, I would never do this with a White Labs vial because I can never get a feel for the health of the yeast. With Wyeast, if I see the package swell up rock hard and it's relatively quick, I assume it's ready to roll and I pitch into well-oxygenated wort. The vials seem more dicey so I make a starter. Also, my goal is good beer. I would never take a short cut which resulted in less-than-stellar beer. I wouldn't want to make things more complicated for no reason.

 

I always thought the "activator into 5 gallons" was a good pitching rate for yeast health (as determined by Wyeast) not a good pitching rate for the resulting beer (as determined by most homebrewing authorities).  

 

Also, I'd like to note here that some ales seem to benefit from underpitching, especially German wheat beers and, to a lesser extent, English session ales.

[Big Nake]

I always thought the "activator into 5 gallons" was a good pitching rate for yeast health (as determined by Wyeast) not a good pitching rate for the resulting beer (as determined by most homebrewing authorities).

You'll have to explain that one to me.

[davelew]

You'll have to explain that one to me.

 

Wyeast are not beer experts, they're yeast experts.  Don't listen to Wyeast about making beer, listen to people like Jamil and Denny about making good beer.  

[Big Nake]

Wyeast are not beer experts, they're yeast experts.  Don't listen to Wyeast about making beer, listen to people like Jamil and Denny about making good beer.

Sounds reasonable but why does Wyeast print that on their package? What did you mean in your post #16?

[Big Nake]

Sounds like you guys are thinking that Wyeast's packaging verbage is misleading. From their site...Activator™ packages are designed for direct inoculation of 5 gallons of standard* wort. Activator™ packages contain live yeast cells in a liquid slurry. This yeast slurry is packaged in an optimum condition for storage, while maintaining the ability for rapid and complete fermentation.Activator™ packages include a sterile liquid nutrient pouch that, when “smacked”, releases its contents into the yeast slurry and “activates” the package. The available nutrients initiate the culture’s metabolism which in turn generates CO2 and causes swelling of the package. This process will reduce lag times by preparing the yeast for a healthy fermentation prior to inoculation. Activation also serves as a viability test of the culture. Expansion of the package is an indicator of healthy (viable and vital) yeast. Although beneficial, cultures do not need to be activated prior to inoculation.UsageThe Activator™ package contains a minimum of 100 billion cells in a yeast slurry.. The Activator™ is designed to directly inoculate 5 gallons of standard strength ale wort (1.034-1.060 SG) with professional pitching rates. For lagers, we recommend inoculating the wort at warm temperatures (68-70°F/ 20-21°C), waiting for signs of fermentation, and then adjusting to the desired temperature. Alternatively, for pitching into cold conditions (34-58°F/ 1-14°C) or higher gravity wort, we recommend increasing this pitching rate. This can be achieved by pitching additional Activator™ packages or by making a starter culture. Please see the Pitch Rate section for additional information.

 

I don't want to hijack Chad's thread but I do wonder if underpitching is what caused his issue.

Edited by KenLenard, 01 December 2013 - 07:05 PM.