19 replies to this topic

[Brim2theDregs]

I'm brewin' up an APA/IPA with fresh hops cones (not dried) pulled off the bine a couple of hours prior to brewing. They are coming from a friend of mine who has a first year hop farm. We are stoked that his first year Cascades are taking off!!! If the beer turns out OK, It will be served at his farm during a hop tour at the end of the month. This is my first shot at a wet hopped beer and his alpha certification has not came back yet. To approximate the IBUs, I took the higher end of the Alpha range for Cascades (8%) and multiplied it by a factor of 0.38. We got 0.38 by weighing 35 cones (0.620 oz) and then drying them for 24hrs in a dehydrator (0.235 oz). I used the same factor for his Chinooks. I also dropped my efficiency a couple of points for the addition of extra water in the hops. I have an idea that it will finish out a little hoppier than 36.8 IBU's, I just don't know... These cones are pretty papery and tan colored, not cool to the touch. I have heard anywhere from 6 to one to 2 to one, depending on how green the hops are.What do you guys think ????... I would love it if BrewBasser would give a shout out. Here's my thoughts on a recipe... A pound of hops in 11 gallons!!! I love it!!!BeerSmith Recipe PrintoutRecipe: VanHop'nSteinStyle: American Pale AleTYPE: All GrainRecipe Specifications--------------------------Batch Size: 11.00 galBoil Size: 13.14 galEstimated OG: 1.059 SGEstimated Color: 5.4 SRMEstimated IBU: 36.8 IBUBrewhouse Efficiency: 73.00 %Boil Time: 60 MinutesIngredients:------------Amount Item Type % or IBU20.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row)US (2.0 SRM) Grain 81.53 %2.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 8.15 %2.00 lb Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 8.15 %0.33 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 0.82 %0.33 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 0.82 %3.00 oz Van Wet Cascades 2009 [3.04 %] (60 min) FWH 18.3 IBU0.75 oz Van Wet Chinook [6.08 %] (60 min) Hops 8.3 IBU2.00 oz Van Wet Cascades 2009 [3.04 %] (20 min) Hops 3.7 IBU3.00 oz Van Wet Cascades 2009 [3.04 %] (10 min) Hops 3.3 IBU0.25 oz Van Wet Chinook [6.08 %] (5 min) Hops 0.5 IBU3.00 oz Van Wet Cascades 2009 [3.04 %] (1 min) Hops 2.8 IBU1.00 oz Van Wet Chinook [6.08 %] (0 min) (Aroma Hops -2.00 oz Van Wet Cascades 2009 [3.04 %] (0 min) Hops -1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] (Dry Hop 3 days) Hops -Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch SpargeTotal Grain Weight: 24.66 lb----------------------------Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch SpargeStep Time Name Description Step Temp60 min Mash In Add 30.66 qt of water at 172.6 F 152.0 F

[BrewerGeorge]

Are you sure the 24hrs in the dehydrator was enough? Generally, people say to use 6:1 weight ratio for fresh wet hops. I used 6 when I did my wet hop beer two years ago, and the estimate was pretty good.Also, I don't think I'd recommend using the upper end of the Cascade range. Until you know better, I'd go for the middle. Home grown are rarely as potent as professionally farmed. Even if they are, it's just good practice to estimate from the middle of a range instead of an extreme. That way variations in either direction still keep you within the range.Finally, don't lower your efficiency unless you've always measured brewhouse efficiency. If you've just measured mash efficiency (like most of us) the hops won't affect that. ETA: In fact, I don't think the water in the hops would even affect brewhouse efficiency much. Let's see, assuming you add the same amount of water, a wet hop batch would have slightly more water in the system so specific gravity might be a little lower, but OTOH, you'd have more volume to balance it. I don't think efficiency would be affected.

[Brim2theDregs]

Thanks George.Were the hops that you used in your 6:1 brew really tan and papery or green and cool to the touch?I started off at 6:1 and middle of the road - 6 alpha, but after talking to an experienced wet-hop brewer in my local brew club, I dialed it way back. All I have to go on here is what I have read and a couple conversations with club members.They cautioned me that hand picked straight off the bine hops are generally more potent than commercial since they aren't picked, transfered, dried, transfered, and packaged. The theory is all the wonderful little yellow lupulins make it's way into the brew rather than on to the floor and whatnot during handling.Thanks for the brewhouse efficiency lesson. I brew 11 and collect a tad over 10g, but you are right, I was measuring mash efficiency. I'll jack it back up to normal.So you would dial in the recipe using 6 alpha (middle of the road) and divide by 6 for the dry factor to yield an alpha rating of 1 for the wet hops.That would triple the amount of hops that I need!! Holy SHINIKEYS What to do!!!

[Brim2theDregs]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that the guy that recommended 2 to 2.5 / 1 is a hop head, mostly brews IPA's, and wins awards with them so that made a big enough impression on me to dial it way back.I'm not trying to debate you George, you have handed out really excellent advice to me (and many others) in the past, I hold your opinion in high regard which is why I'm really conflicted now!

[BrewerGeorge]

I definitely don't have enough experience in this area to give strong advice. Think of me more as someone to bounce ideas back and forth with. I've only done the one wet hop brew (I didn't much like it, actually, too veggie) and my hops are Glacier with a narrower range of alpha to guess from in the first place. If you know club members with multiple wet hop brews under their belt, I'd take their advice over mine.

[Brim2theDregs]

Thanks Brother.My friend is a first year hop grower, and he is easing into it, seeing what grows best for him.Cascades did the best with 12 ounces coming of the first picking of 1 rhizome. Nuggets did second best, Chinook did OK. Cents crapped out.I was also worried about a strong veggie profile if I dry-hopped with fresh cones, but I am going to cheat and add a little bit of amarillo/simcoe pellets in the keg.What do you think about playing it safe and just using commercial hops with known alpha ratings for bittering and saving the wet hops for flavor and aroma additions only?I really want to use some in the mash though as a FWH too.

[chuck_d]

I don't have any experience wet hopping, I hope to do it next fall with the hops I planted this year. I just happen to be in the hops section right now of the MBAA practical handbooks, so I thought I'd share some relevant information for you. Fresh green cones are 80% moisture, and they are dried to 8-11% moisture.

[Brim2theDregs]

Damn! Now there's a vote for 10:1

[Pseudolus]

Are you dead set on using all homegrown hops in the boil? It would be less risky to use commercial hops of known alpha for your FWH & 60-min additions and save the fresh stuff for late-boil.

[BrewerGeorge]

...What do you think about playing it safe and just using commercial hops with known alpha ratings for bittering and saving the wet hops for flavor and aroma additions only?I really want to use some in the mash though as a FWH too.

I say screw it and use them. If you don't go all the way, you'll never know what was contributed by the wet hops and what by the "regular" hops.At the worst, it won't make undrinkable beer, it will just make sub-optimal beer.

[Brim2theDregs]

Not dead set on anything other than using as mush of the wet hops coming from the farm that I can, especially since he's paying me to brew up 10 gallons to serve at his farm during a hops tour where about a bunch of people are expected!I really want to drop balls out and go for it, and I would if it were just for me, just got a lot at stake. Getting a lot of conflicting info and no practical experience.From what I've heard so far, to call a beer "wet hoped", I think it generally refers to adding wet hops during flavor/aroma additions or running through a hop-back. Maybe it won't be cheating to use something known for the bittering / dry hopping.Still kind of feel neutered taking that approach. Wish I had more time.

[Brim2theDregs]

no practical experience.

No practical experience on my part that is!!!Thanks to all who replied. Unless someone else thinks otherwise and responds this evening, I am going to go with this approach...-a small amount, say 3oz of wet hop flowers as a FWH for zen.-some kown Alpha hops for bittering with a little bit (1 oz) of wet chinook thrown in for more zen.-gobs of cascades and a few ozzies of chinook for late hop additions at the 3:1 to 3.5:1 correction factor-dry hop the hell out of it if it comes in weak.-I'll wait until 1 or 2 days before throwing in wet hops in the keg to avoid a heavy grass/veggie taste.I will serve it 3 weeks old. edit - since the hop tour is August 29th.

[EWW]

I'm brewing a homegrown hop lager on sunday and I'm using a known alpha hop (magnum) for bittering so that I can estamate the IBUS. I am adding the cascade(homegrown), late in the boil for flavor and aroma. I'm not gonna mess around with a guess for ibus at the risk of making a extremely bitter beer or the complete opposite. Especially the fact I am making a lager which takes longer. If I were in your shoes, I would skip the homegrown for bitter additions and use something known in order to get close to the ibus that you want because the flavor and aroma additions are not going to add very many ibus at all...within reason. I say use the hops like you would for any other IPA....heavy on the late additions and dry hop the sh-t out of it.

this, but you could also hop burst the hell out of it in the last 20-30 minutes and skip the FWH and bitter additions all together - will give you a huge hop flavor/aroma and the bitterness will be a wash if you use enough in the end of the boil - this is the only practical way to get around using known hops - I would skip the dry hops if I did thisbest of luck

[Brim2theDregs]

Thanks guys. I think I'm going to compromise and do a known alpha hop for abou 25 IBU's of bittering, throw a couple ounces of wet in the mash, hit it hard between 20 and 0, and then dry hop accordingly after it finishes out.Thanks so much for the help.JR

[Brim2theDregs]

Even though I wimped out on the bittering hops and used pellets, there was enough zen created by over pound of fresh hand picked hops to please the Beer Gods.Thanks for the help all.One thing I noticed after pulling a used cone out of the hop bag and then pulling it apart was LOTS of gold dust left behind. I swear next time I am going to take the time to slice them in half. I think thats where a lot of the vegetal taste comes from that I've been hearing about... lots of contact with the leaf, not much lupulin extraction. Just a theory.Hopr your brew day was as excellent as mine Matt.

[Stout_fan]

A fellow HB'er evaluated id alpha by making hop tea. In one quart (I think) he put some commercial dried hops of known alpha.Similar volume of water he put his home grown dried hop. After similar boil times, he sampled both. And added water to the most bitter until they tasted even. The having measure the water added he worked out the proportions and calculated his alpha. It came in around 8% IIRC, which says something for the lost lupilin on the floor theory.To do wet hop, all you would have to do is bump the wet weight by 6x the dry weight, and go from there.

[Brim2theDregs]

A fellow HB'er evaluated id alpha by making hop tea. In one quart (I think) he put some commercial dried hops of known alpha.Similar volume of water he put his home grown dried hop. After similar boil times, he sampled both. And added water to the most bitter until they tasted even. The having measure the water added he worked out the proportions and calculated his alpha. It came in around 8% IIRC, which says something for the lost lupilin on the floor theory.To do wet hop, all you would have to do is bump the wet weight by 6x the dry weight, and go from there.

Roger that.I used 3.5x and I could have went higher, maybe the 6X factor would have been better. I was working from the .38 ratio of wet to dry that the grower gave me (2.6X) and bumped it up to 3.5X after reading more posts. I felt good about those numbers when they arrived because they felt very dry, tissue paper crinkly, and were tanish on some of the outer leafs... some even had a bit of brown on the tips. They were laid out on paper towels in the trunk of a car for the 2 hour ride to my house as well. I felt like 3.5 was the right call.Thanks stout_ I think the hop tea is an excellent idea and I wish I would have thought of it!For next time, what do you guys think of slicing the cones laterally down the middle to expose the lupulin prior to pitching them into the boil? I'll get a picture of the used cone on here tomorrow. I found it eye opening.

[Brim2theDregs]

I just thought I would post a follow-up on the wet-hopped beer.My advice is to stick with the 6X factor like others have said. I needed to bump up aroma and flavor so I dry hopped each corny with 2 ounces of simcoe pellets (what I had in the freezer) for 3 days and the beer turned out to be a pretty good APA.10 Gallons didn't last long! Got tuns of compliments, most of which were new to homebrew, but they weren't your average BMC drinkers either. I got one guy that told me... that kinda tastes like Sierra Nevada! I was stoked cause that is my go-to beer at the grocery store!!!I have lost the pic of the used hop cone with all the lupulin still in it, but I still think that utilization will jump significantly if I had taken the time to slice the cones in half prior to brewing. The moist leafs form a barrier when in the boil, and I think this is what attributes to the over-the-top vegie quality I have heard others talk about.Thanks for all the suggestions!JR