23 replies to this topic

[BlackBeerd]

This might have been answered before or I might have read the answer somewhere but I'm just too lazy to look it up.When malting grains, you keep them warm and moist until they sprout. Then heat them to stop the growth and dry them out. To use them, you grind them and get them wet again.My question, can you skip the drying step and crush them (would be a real mess) and use the heat from the mash water to stop the growth process? Or is there something that happens during drying that is needed for the starch to sugar conversion?

[MolBasser]

No, you can go straight from sprouting to mashing.The reason that it is kilned are severalfold.1. Storage and transportation.2. Color and flavor gained through the maillard reaction on kilning.Lots of corn whiskey is made by the sprouting to mashing with no kilning.BrewBasser

[Deerslyr]

No, you can go straight from sprouting to mashing.The reason that it is kilned are severalfold.1. Storage and transportation.2. Color and flavor gained through the maillard reaction on kilning.Lots of corn whiskey is made by the sprouting to mashing with no kilning.BrewBasser

Basser, I don't doubt you because of your profession, but I"ve got a couple of quick questions.1. Based on your post, I assume it is not necessary to get rid of the acrospire. Is that correct? I'm also assuming that the acrospire doesn't bring anything to the table, so it doesn't matter one way or the other.2. Practically speaking, how would you mill wet grains? I know the OP said it would be "messy", but how would the home brewer go about doing this? 3. Assuming you get a good crush, would one need to use Rice Hulls to compensate for what I assume will be mangled husks?

[BlackBeerd]

I don't think you would get a good crush, it would be more of a mush. If you are making corn whisky, I think it is normal to cook the whole thing and also ferment the mash draining off the liquid after the yeast is done. The distillation process would effectively filter out any solids that make it through.

[chuck_d]

I know there are "wet" mills that some commercial brewers use where the grain is hydrated on its way to be crushed. I believe these mills are specifically designed to handle wet grains. I'm not sure the grain gets up to ~45% moisture like it does while steeping though.

[MolBasser]

Basser, I don't doubt you because of your profession, but I"ve got a couple of quick questions.1. Based on your post, I assume it is not necessary to get rid of the acrospire. Is that correct? I'm also assuming that the acrospire doesn't bring anything to the table, so it doesn't matter one way or the other.

You wouldn't get rid of it. It is normally removed along with the roots in kilning, although many make it through, just look at the top of your mash sometime. I have no idea what effect it would have. Certainly add more protein that you aren't interested in, that's for sure.

2. Practically speaking, how would you mill wet grains? I know the OP said it would be "messy", but how would the home brewer go about doing this?

I doubt there is a good homebrewing solution to wet milling. I'm sure that someone could engineer something. Very few pro brewers wet mill. I think north america has 5 wet mills with SNBC owning 3 of those.

3. Assuming you get a good crush, would one need to use Rice Hulls to compensate for what I assume will be mangled husks?

No, wet milling is more gentle on husks, that is why we do it at SNBC.BrewBasser

[Deerslyr]

You wouldn't get rid of it. It is normally removed along with the roots in kilning, although many make it through, just look at the top of your mash sometime. I have no idea what effect it would have. Certainly add more protein that you aren't interested in, that's for sure.I doubt there is a good homebrewing solution to wet milling. I'm sure that someone could engineer something. Very few pro brewers wet mill. I think north america has 5 wet mills with SNBC owning 3 of those.No, wet milling is more gentle on husks, that is why we do it at SNBC.BrewBasser

Thanks for the excellent responses. Now I know what's at the top of the mash!

[BlackBeerd]

You wouldn't get rid of it. It is normally removed along with the roots in kilning, although many make it through, just look at the top of your mash sometime. I have no idea what effect it would have. Certainly add more protein that you aren't interested in, that's for sure.I doubt there is a good homebrewing solution to wet milling. I'm sure that someone could engineer something. Very few pro brewers wet mill. I think north america has 5 wet mills with SNBC owning 3 of those.No, wet milling is more gentle on husks, that is why we do it at SNBC.BrewBasser

What does a wet mill do differant than a dry mill? Can you post a few pics of it?

[MolBasser]

I'll see if I can get permission to post a pic of our main mill (the others are the same, just smaller).The gist of it is that on top is the grain hopper, that is where the grist is loaded. Below the grain hopper is the steeping chamber. In the steeping chamber water is injected, so as the grain moves from the grain hopper to the rollers it is soaked for a period of time. By the time the grain hits the rollers its is softened by the water in the steeping chamber and the rollers crush the grain.The steeping phase results in more intact husks in the mash as it gets pumped to the mash tun. This results in more efficient lautering.BrewBasser

[chuck_d]

What does a wet mill do differant than a dry mill? Can you post a few pics of it?

Well, since I'm supposed to read this anyways, I just opened up Kunze to the second section called Wet Milling.One of the advantages he mentions is that with dry milling the husks get damaged more easily. With wet milling the husks are almost undamaged and therefore you get better mash separation. It looks like water is basically sprayed onto the grains in the hopper, that water is recirc'd on top. And now that I read this, the steeping last long enough to get the grain moisture up to 35-40% which is just a tad under the 45-48% I read for malting steeping processes. The corns are said to squeeze right out of their husks, so you have these corns and their shells just going into the mash tun, it looks like they run the wet mills at narrower gaps than dry mills because it's so easy to squeeze out the corns.The last sentence in the section... "Wet mills are no longer manufactured."

Edited by chuck_d, 28 July 2009 - 02:55 PM.

[MolBasser]

HERE is the link to the brochure for the millstar that we have (or one very like it.BrewBasser

[MolBasser]

Well, since I'm supposed to read this anyways, I just opened up Kunze to the second section called Wet Milling.One of the advantages he mentions is that with dry milling the husks get damaged more easily. With wet milling the husks are almost undamaged and therefore you get better mash separation. It looks like water is basically sprayed onto the grains in the hopper, that water is recirc'd on top. And now that I read this, the steeping last long enough to get the grain moisture up to 35-40% which is just a tad under the 45-48% I read for malting steeping processes. The corns are said to squeeze right out of their husks, so you have these corns and their shells just going into the mash tun, it looks like they run the wet mills at narrower gaps than dry mills because it's so easy to squeeze out the corns.The last sentence in the section... "Wet mills are no longer manufactured."

Yeah this, but they still make them.BrewBasser

[chuck_d]

HERE is the link to the brochure for the millstar that we have (or one very like it.BrewBasser

Wow that thing looks crazy awesome, and like it costs serious dough.

[BlackBeerd]

HERE is the link to the brochure for the millstar that we have (or one very like it.BrewBasser

Is that the same surface as the rollers in the ones you use?The almost straight across groves instead of the knurl that we are used to seeing?Do you have a problem with the grain sticking to the rollers or is there a scraping system? Are there feed issues?I found this for $3235.00And this for $219.95Would the cheaper one do the same job?

[Deerslyr]

Is that the same surface as the rollers in the ones you use?The almost straight across groves instead of the knurl that we are used to seeing?Do you have a problem with the grain sticking to the rollers or is there a scraping system? Are there feed issues?I found this for $3235.00And this for $219.95Would the cheaper one do the same job?

Did you notice, among the many things that Pleasant Hill Grain claims the mill to be able to grind, was "BONES"? REALLY!!! BONES!!! I shit you not. I had to do a double take and make sure I read that correctly? What? Like Ed Ghein or Jeffrey Dahmer is calling up and asking for a mill that will take care of BONES???LOLI'm sure it's just meant for errant bones and cartiliedge in grinding meat or something... otherwise I'd want an explanation.

[MolBasser]

Is that the same surface as the rollers in the ones you use?The almost straight across groves instead of the knurl that we are used to seeing?

Yes.

Do you have a problem with the grain sticking to the rollers or is there a scraping system? Are there feed issues?

No. No, and no.

I found this for $3235.00And this for $219.95Would the cheaper one do the same job?

I'm not sure how well they would work. The cheaper one looks like a corona mill with lipstick. I got it for 30 bucks. (BTW, I use a corona mill for homebrewing)BrewBasser

[chuck_d]

Did you notice, among the many things that Pleasant Hill Grain claims the mill to be able to grind, was "BONES"? REALLY!!! BONES!!! I shit you not. I had to do a double take and make sure I read that correctly? What? Like Ed Ghein or Jeffrey Dahmer is calling up and asking for a mill that will take care of BONES???LOLI'm sure it's just meant for errant bones and cartiliedge in grinding meat or something... otherwise I'd want an explanation.

Marrow is the secret flavoring in Soylent Green.

[BlackBeerd]

Yes.No. No, and no.I'm not sure how well they would work. The cheaper one looks like a corona mill with lipstick. I got it for 30 bucks. (BTW, I use a corona mill for homebrewing)BrewBasser

OK great. A few more questions and I might have enough info to make a homebrew sized version. :)Are the grooves straight across the roll or are they on a slight helix? How many grooves per inch?

[MolBasser]

OK great. A few more questions and I might have enough info to make a homebrew sized version. :)Are the grooves straight across the roll or are they on a slight helix? How many grooves per inch?

Slight helix. You would have to ask Huppmann.BrewBasser

[MolBasser]

The end of the mill cycle is a big rinse of water through the steeping chamber and the rollers to get the excess grain through, meaning after the grain goes through, the rollers still run while water is poured over it.BrewBasser