96 replies to this topic

[Brauer]

In my mind, a lot of the confusion comes from mistaking Lager and Ale for styles, when they are more like biological terms. If you made a convincing Pilsner with an Ale yeast, it would be an Ale and a Pilsner, to me.

I know some people who call Kolsch and Alt "hybrid" styles too but I don't see that. My pack of 1007 says right on it, "1007 GERMAN ALE YEAST".

1007 is an Ale yeast, but it's some derivation of the Uerige yeast, not the only Alt yeast. Some commercial Northern German Alts are said to be made with Lager yeasts and I've had excellent homebrewed Alts that were made with warm fermented Lager yeast.

I'm all for ale yeast makes an ale and lager yeast makes a lager... However, I'm changing my mind a little.Didn't lager originate from the German term for storage... so maybe a lager is really about any beer that is stored for a period of time.I will have to sample many ales and lagers as I ponder this

In Germany, Lagerbier, is pretty nearly a synonym for Helles or maybe Export, but it could, technically, be applied to an Alt or Kölsch.

I dislike black and white definitions, it's just who I am

and brewing, like the world, isn't black-and-white, no matter how much we might want it to be that way.

This is a part of the discussion that hasn't come up yet. A beer that is fermented with lager yeast at ale temps is a weird one. I would call it a lager that was made under questionable conditions. I only say that because many lager yeasts would not perform well under those conditions although some would.

Do you think that all (if any) Steam Beer was made with the Anchor yeast when Jack London was drinking it 100+ years ago? I know you've formed an opinion about Lager yeasts fermented warm without trying it, I did too, but the couple I've tried have performed very well. Most of the Bohemian strains are known to have broad temperature tolerance. I probably wouldn't try it at 68°F, but I rarely would ferment an Ale that warm, either. Here's an appropriate quote from a good Brewing Techniques article to read if you are interested in this style, "Those wishing to make a California common beer in conventional fermentors will find many suitable modern lager strains with good high-temperature performance. I recommend Weihenstephan 34/70 (Wyeast #2124) and Wissenschaftliches #308 (Wyeast #2308)."

Edited by Brauer, 15 July 2012 - 04:05 PM.

[klickcue]

Do you think that all (if any) Steam Beer was made with the Anchor yeast when Jack London was drinking it 100+ years ago? I know you've formed an opinion about Lager yeasts fermented warm without trying it, I did too, but the couple I've tried have performed very well. Most of the Bohemian strains are known to have broad temperature tolerance. I probably wouldn't try it at 68°F, but I rarely would ferment an Ale that warm, either.

I have to agree with Brauer on this one. Not to confuse the topic of Ale versus Lager yeast, one has to look at history again.Bohemia was made up of the Czech Republic and parts of Germany. Lager yeast was making the scene in the early 1800s.Fast forward to the miner drinking beer in California. The Germans brought their yeast with them to produce beer for the customer,With very little ice available or cool temperatures to cool the wort, can one imagine a brewer pumping the wort over a tower to get the temperature down?

[Genesee Ted]

I can't even believe there is debate here on this subject. This is simple. Lager yeast, any temp = Lager. Ale yeast, any temp = ale. There really isn't wiggle room or anything. Legally, I am not sure if this is the case, but from a brewing science perspective, it is.

[Big Nake]

I can't even believe there is debate here on this subject. This is simple. Lager yeast, any temp = Lager. Ale yeast, any temp = ale. There really isn't wiggle room or anything. Legally, I am not sure if this is the case, but from a brewing science perspective, it is.

I'm surprised a little by the debate but it shows that the creative juices are flowing in homebrewers all over. I don't think that you can make a lager w/ale yeast or vice-versa and that's just the way I have always looked at it. I also know people who categorize hops this way too. They wouldn't use Cascade in a lager or Spalt in an ale or whatever. I see that argument although there is no real guideline there... you can use any hop in any beer AFAIK.Today, I made a beer that some of the brewers here might embrace as a lager or pseudo-lager. When I put the recipe together, I had this thread in mind. I made a "gold beer". Gambrinus Pale Ale Malt, Vienna and Carafoam. I used Mt. Hood for bittering and flavor and I added a late addition of Saaz. Total IBUs only came in around 22. I cut the water 50/50 (filtered tap and RO) and I chilled the wort in an ice bath, hit it for 60 seconds with pure O2 and then cold pitched a healthy, active slurry of 1056. Then I dropped the primary into a tub of water where the thermometer reads 60°. I will do everything I can to let it ferment around that temp. The clean profile from the cool fermentation plus the clean hops up front plus an undisputed "lager hop" (Saaz) late in the boil would give this beer a good chance to be mistaken for a lager. If a homebrewer were to ask about the yeast and I said, "Wyeast 2007 American Lager" (which would be a lie), I might be able to get away with it... if it turns out the way I envision. Cheers Beerheads.Ps. But it's still an ale.

Edited by KenLenard, 17 July 2012 - 04:01 PM.

[denny]

I can't even believe there is debate here on this subject. This is simple. Lager yeast, any temp = Lager. Ale yeast, any temp = ale. There really isn't wiggle room or anything. Legally, I am not sure if this is the case, but from a brewing science perspective, it is.

Edited by denny, 17 July 2012 - 06:26 PM.

[Genesee Ted]

you can use any hop in any beer AFAIK.

You can.... but certain hops are better for certain styles. An IIPA with Saaz.... a hefe with Simcoe... There are hops that are specific to styles, not to say you can't mix it up, but if you are talking about styles then hops matter. I am all for innovation and creativity in brewing. I am no style purist by any means. But if you are going to bring a whacked out combo to the table and expect to win accolades, you better know what flavors you are going for and why you are doing what you are doing. This is akin to saying any malt can go in any beer. It is true, but what place does Special B have in a pils?

[Big Nake]

You can.... but certain hops are better for certain styles. An IIPA with Saaz.... a hefe with Simcoe... There are hops that are specific to styles, not to say you can't mix it up, but if you are talking about styles then hops matter. I am all for innovation and creativity in brewing. I am no style purist by any means. But if you are going to bring a whacked out combo to the table and expect to win accolades, you better know what flavors you are going for and why you are doing what you are doing. This is akin to saying any malt can go in any beer. It is true, but what place does Special B have in a pils?

Yep, you're preaching to the choir, my good man. I don't use completely inappropriate ingredients in beers but I have no problem doing something a little off-the-map occasionally. For known styles, I like to stick to what works. Noble hops in continental lagers, Northern Brewer hops in West Coast Lagers, etc. But say you have a wide open area like "red lager" or "amber lager"... you have some wiggle room. I'll use Mt. Hood or Liberty in a lager and I'll use Saaz or Hallertau in an ale if I think it will work nicely. Cheers!

[Mya]

You can.... but certain hops are better for certain styles. An IIPA with Saaz.... a hefe with Simcoe... There are hops that are specific to styles, not to say you can't mix it up, but if you are talking about styles then hops matter. I am all for innovation and creativity in brewing. I am no style purist by any means. But if you are going to bring a whacked out combo to the table and expect to win accolades, you better know what flavors you are going for and why you are doing what you are doing. This is akin to saying any malt can go in any beer. It is true, but what place does Special B have in a pils?

Saaz is good in really pale IIPAs, Simcoe is tasty in American Wheatonly a moron would use Spec B in a Pils though

[Big Nake]

only a moron would use Spec B in a Pils though

ZOMG! Looks like I better shelf my Special B-ilsner idea!

[Genesee Ted]

Saaz is good in really pale IIPAs, Simcoe is tasty in American Wheatonly a moron would use Spec B in a Pils though

Damn you! I thought of this while I was typing but you know what I am saying.

[Brauer]

Hoponius Union from Jack's Abbey is my current favorite IPA. It's a Lager that BeerAdvocate seems to have classified as a Dortmunder Export. It's not much of an Export, but it's a delicious IPA that happens to be made with a Lager yeast.

[Big Nake]

Hoponius Union from Jack's Abbey is my current favorite IPA. It's a Lager that BeerAdvocate seems to have classified as a Dortmunder Export. It's not much of an Export, but it's a delicious IPA that happens to be made with a Lager yeast.

Very interesting. I had a conversation with someone awhile back about Leinenkugel... Is Leinie distributed nationwide? Anyway, the story goes that all of their beer are lagers. Some of their beer is mysteriously labeled like "Classic Amber" (is that ale or lager?) and Honey Weiss which is not a Weissbier in normal terms. It's clear and there is no banana/clove thing going on but you would think that it's an ale. I'm all for damning style guidelines and creating a delicious, ultra-drinkable product with whatever ingredients the brewer(s) see fit. For someone to make a classic beer style like IPA with a lager yeast seems unusual especially when it's probably more work to make it that way (colder, slower fermentation, etc). Cheers Beerheads.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

Hoponius Union from Jack's Abbey is my current favorite IPA. It's a Lager that BeerAdvocate seems to have classified as a Dortmunder Export. It's not much of an Export, but it's a delicious IPA that happens to be made with a Lager yeast.

IPL I've had several conversations with brewers wanting/planing to do India Pale Lagers. I'm surprised there aren't more on the market.

[Genesee Ted]

IPL I've had several conversations with brewers wanting/planing to do India Pale Lagers. I'm surprised there aren't more on the market.

I know quite a few homebrewers who do this and I have had the Jack's Abbey IPL. It is very good. Still a lager not an ale though. Leinies are available here at least and I have noticed their deceptive labeling. They can get away with that from a legal perspective, but ale is ale and lager is lager. Some lagers are labeled ale because of strange laws about ABV. Doesn't change the fact that they were brewed with lager yeast.

[Mya]

Damn you! I thought of this while I was typing but you know what I am saying.

lolI do, just stirring the pot a littleactually an IPL is intriguing

[Brauer]

I know quite a few homebrewers who do this and I have had the Jack's Abbey IPL. It is very good. Still a lager not an ale though.

No question, it is a Lager, but I'm sure it would score very well as an IPA and poorly as any established Lager style. At the same time, I think one of the reasons it is so good is because it is a Lager.

[Genesee Ted]

Well, the thing is, the fruitiness of the hops can masquerade as the esters of the yeast, so unless you are really digging in, I think the subtle lager yeast characteristics are lost. That being said, the IPLs I have had have all been really good and would score well as IPAs. But I really don't even know where else you could enter them in a BJCP comp other than Cat 23

[Brauer]

For someone to make a classic beer style like IPA with a lager yeast seems unusual especially when it's probably more work to make it that way (colder, slower fermentation, etc).

It's more of a modern IPA than a classic IPA. This brewery only makes Lagers, so it may not be more difficult for them, but mostly it fits in their model. They have been doing a nice job of making some classic Lagers while finding the freedom to ignore a lot of the prejudices that have shown up in this thread.For example, another beer of theirs that I really like is Jabby Brau, which is somewhat like a Pilsner made with an American hop presence. It stresses the floral more than grapefruit, but still has enough citrus flavor to be distintive and refreshing.

[denny]

Well, the thing is, the fruitiness of the hops can masquerade as the esters of the yeast, so unless you are really digging in, I think the subtle lager yeast characteristics are lost. That being said, the IPLs I have had have all been really good and would score well as IPAs. But I really don't even know where else you could enter them in a BJCP comp other than Cat 23

If they taste like an IPA, that's what you enter them as. Nobody is gonna ask about the yeast. It may technically be a lager (and that's certainly how I'd classify it "beeronomically"), but in a BJCP comp a beer is what it tastes like.

[Big Nake]

If they taste like an IPA, that's what you enter them as. Nobody is gonna ask about the yeast. It may technically be a lager (and that's certainly how I'd classify it "beeronomically"), but in a BJCP comp a beer is what it tastes like.

Oh no. You're giving the other side more ammo, man. Now you're saying that if a beer "tastes" like a lager than it really is!