96 replies to this topic

[Mya]

It's a heated topic that resurfaces every now and again like buying second hand sanke kegs.

or batch vs. fly sparging

[Big Nake]

I think Ken knows as well, or better than most the answer to the question, but was posing it, as a platform for debate only.

It is for debate only and I appreciate you saying that. I also want to say that I have had very smooth and refreshing ales (both mine, commercial versions and those from other brewers) that were very lager-like in their character and it's very possible that you might tell brewers and mortals alike that it was a lager and you might fool someone. But I do think that you would not pass the giggle test if one of those brewers was curious about which yeast strain you used. I say that because lager yeasts have different profiles than ale yeasts and if you said, "Oh, um, that one was made with, um, 2206, yeah, that's it" and the other brewer was very familiar with 2206, he might say, "REALLY!?!?! NO!". I dunno, just a fun topic I guess. I agree with Deerslyr also... I would not pass an ale off as a lager because there is no reason to do that. If I made a very lager-like ale, hey... Big ups to me! Also, I would state again for the record: I like the profiles of certain lager yeasts just like I enjoy various ale characteristics too. I don't necessarily make a lager with a lager yeast just because I think it will be smoother or whatever. I make it because the character you get with 830 or 2308 or 2124 or 940 is something you can only get from that yeast just like you get that bready, minerally thing with English ale yeasts. Cheers Brewers!

Edited by KenLenard, 13 July 2012 - 01:24 PM.

[denny]

It will be a Hybrid, will it not???

That is such an ambiguous term that I can't really say.

[Big Nake]

The only beers I can envision being called "hybrids" are steam/west coast lager/california common. I say this because 2112/810 is usually listed as a lager yeast that can operate at warmer temps. I know some people who call Kolsch and Alt "hybrid" styles too but I don't see that. My pack of 1007 says right on it, "1007 GERMAN ALE YEAST".

[denny]

Since we are having the debate about it, what is it about the lager yeast going through the sugars slower than an ale yeast that is more beneficial to the beer?

The only reason it goes through the sugars more slowly is becasue it's working at a lower temp. That's why you can use an ale yeast at low temps to get lager like characteristics. But it will still be an ale.

[Mya]

The only beers I can envision being called "hybrids" are steam/west coast lager/california common. I say this because 2112/810 is usually listed as a lager yeast that can operate at warmer temps. I know some people who call Kolsch and Alt "hybrid" styles too but I don't see that. My pack of 1007 says right on it, "1007 GERMAN ALE YEAST".

I would call cream ales hybrids, as it is the opposite of a steam/common beer

[djinkc]

What's that yeast Charlie P. came up with? It ferments all over the temperature range.

[Big Nake]

What's that yeast Charlie P. came up with? It ferments all over the temperature range.

Cry Havoc? WLP862, I believe. I ordered it once and never got the chance to try it. It sat in the fridge for years before I tossed it. I probably didn't know what to make with it!

[Mya]

Cry Havoc? WLP862, I believe. I ordered it once and never got the chance to try it. It sat in the fridge for years before I tossed it. I probably didn't know what to make with it!

it's a lager yeast though :devil:purportedly originally from Budweiser

[positiveContact]

lager = made with lager yeast at lager tempsale = made with ale yeasts at ale tempshybrid = mix and match

[denny]

Saccharomyces pastorianus.......THAT'S the current name for lager yeast! Damn, that was hard to remember! Story in the Mar/Apr 2012 issue of BYO.More info...https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110822151019.htm

Edited by denny, 13 July 2012 - 06:46 PM.

[cavman]

Does anyone get the feeling that someone else other than Ken is accessing his account?

No, Ken has his style and this topic is very like him. In my mind he is particular in what he likes and stands behind that. I don't agree with his tastes for the most part but respect him for doing so.

[klickcue]

I believe that one has to to look at at history to solve the riddle of this thread.Can a brewer today create a faux lager with a Ale yeast? Sure. Is it a lager, no..Can a painter create the appearance of marble on a piece of wood. Sure. Is it marble, No. When a lager yeast came on the scene in history, it took the brew trade by storm. It was clean and bright. The customer enjoyed it it. It became the most used yeast world wide. And, today, it is still the most used yeast n the world. Do we as brewers do many lagers? No. You need temperature control and the yeast.Isn't it fun!

[DaBearSox]

https://alestolagers...and-lagers.html

[Steve Urquell]

I like things black and white. If a beer is fermented at lager temps with lager yeast, then its a lager. When a commercial brewery ferments a beer with their house lager yeast at ale temps, they call it an ale...as in NB 1554 or Yeungling's APA--just toured the Tampa brewery and asked the yeast handler.So, I can understand how someone could call a beer fermented with ale yeast at lager temps a lager, although I don't consider it to be one.

[Mya]

I like things black and white. If a beer is fermented at lager temps with lager yeast, then its a lager.When a commercial brewery ferments a beer with their house lager yeast at ale temps, they call it an ale...as in NB 1554 or Yeungling's APA--just toured the Tampa brewery and asked the yeast handler.So, I can understand how someone could call a beer fermented with ale yeast at lager temps a lager, although I don't consider it to be one.

I dislike black and white definitions, it's just who I am

[MakeMeHoppy]

I'm all for ale yeast makes an ale and lager yeast makes a lager... However, I'm changing my mind a little.Didn't lager originate from the German term for storage... so maybe a lager is really about any beer that is stored for a period of time.I will have to sample many ales and lagers as I ponder this

[Steve Urquell]

I get the whole perception thing too. If you handed me a Red Stripe in a glass and asked me to call it ale or lager, Id say ale, then I'd take 2 Tylenol to get rid of my headache.

[djinkc]

Lager is what I drink if I'm thirsty. Ale is what I drink when I want a beer.

Edited by djinkc, 14 July 2012 - 10:49 AM.

[Big Nake]

I like things black and white. If a beer is fermented at lager temps with lager yeast, then its a lager.When a commercial brewery ferments a beer with their house lager yeast at ale temps, they call it an ale...as in NB 1554 or Yeungling's APA--just toured the Tampa brewery and asked the yeast handler.So, I can understand how someone could call a beer fermented with ale yeast at lager temps a lager, although I don't consider it to be one.

This is a part of the discussion that hasn't come up yet. A beer that is fermented with lager yeast at ale temps is a weird one. I would call it a lager that was made under questionable conditions. I only say that because many lager yeasts would not perform well under those conditions although some would. I don't think you could get away with the opposite... an ale yeast at lager temps. It would probably go dormant. I agree with MakeMeHoppy... let's all sample many lagers and ales to get a better feel for it. Cheers Beerheads.