96 replies to this topic

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

Does anyone get the feeling that someone else other than Ken is accessing his account?

He must be bored

[Big Nake]

I'm eager to learn. When this stuff was first knocked around, there were people on either side but the people who looked it at from my angle said, "the yeast defines the beer" which is how I see it. I wanted to start another thread so we didn't muddy DJ's Alt thread.

[Humperdink]

And this is how you learn! Ask away man, No harm in asking anything. We all love beer!

[Mya]

what of the English breweries that use lager yeast in their brews?

[denny]

what of the English breweries that use lager yeast in their brews?

They are making lagers.

[Humperdink]

They are making lagers.

Yep.

[Mindblock]

No. You can make a beer with lager characteristics, but it won't be a lager.

It will be a Hybrid, will it not???

[Big Nake]

I completely get the idea that an ale can be smooth, balanced, refreshing or however you want to describe lagers. But I can't understand how a lager can be made with ale yeast. I guess this was the first structure of brewing that I understood when (or maybe before) I started brewing... ales over here (red ales, amber ales, pale ales, alts, kolsch, ESBs, IPA, stout, etc.) and lagers over there (Oktoberfest, Pilsner, Dunkel, Bock, Helles, Vienna, Marzen, etc). It also makes sense that a steam beer is so described... it's made with a specific yeast that can produce lager-like characteristics at warmer temps. You can call it a hybrid or West Coast Lager or whatever but the style is driven by the yeast and I maintain that ale & lager is the same.

[Mya]

They are making lagers.

I thought they were making bitters :DThe only dog I have in this fight is perception, in that, if you didn't know that a brewer didn't use the traditional yeast, and you personally judged the beer in a lager category, and found it worthy, how would you ever know it was an ale?In this I maintain that results are what really matter.

[Humperdink]

I thought they were making bitters :DThe only dog I have in this fight is perception, in that, if you didn't know that a brewer didn't use the traditional yeast, and you personally judged the beer in a lager category, and found it worthy, how would you ever know it was an ale?In this I maintain that results are what really matter.

I agree that perception is what it is. But I took the question to be technical. I've been fooled by ales and lagers before, but a lab won't be.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

I'm in the perception is irrelevant as is fermentation temp.Lager yeast makes lager. Ale yeast makes ale.

[Mya]

I'm in the perception is irrelevant as is fermentation temp.Lager yeast makes lager. Ale yeast makes ale.

I am not in agreement, but it all makes beer, so it's all good anyway.

[Big Nake]

I am not in agreement, but it all makes beer, so it's all good anyway.

You're not in agreement that lager yeast makes lager beer and ale yeast makes ales?

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

I am not in agreement, but it all makes beer, so it's all good anyway.

You can dress up a rat to look like a Terrier and win the Westminster Dog Show, doesn't make him a dog.We are in agreement that yeast does make beer

[Mya]

You're not in agreement that lager yeast makes lager beer and ale yeast makes ales?

I see brewing as an art more than a science, so in my mind, no, I am in agreement with Zymot, that the result matters, more than the details.

[Big Nake]

I see brewing as an art more than a science, so in my mind, no, I am in agreement with Zymot, that the result matters, more than the details.

Okay. I also agree that brewing can be an art. As a brewer, it would be hard not to see brewing that way. We have the creativity and what we brew is practically limitless. But there is a scientific side too and it's like what Denny said... art is art but you don't call a lithograph a sculpture because there are guidelines and structure to it as well. Also understand that I am not against people who want to make this beer with that yeast or whatever... I do that myself. MLPA was probably an attempt to make something similar to a Festbier before I had the ability to lager. I have attempted to make pilsners with ale yeasts because I didn't have the ability to lager and the attempts were fine. But I never thought of them as lagers... just light ales.

[Mya]

Ok for gawds sake you guys win, technically, yes the yeast defines a beer scientificallydo we have a surrender smiley?

[Deerslyr]

I was confused by the genesis of this thread because I perceive Ken to be an excellent brewer who is more than capable of brewing both ales and lagers. You can understand my confusion when the question that persisted was a Brewing 101 type of a question. Problem in asking a question like that is you fish for technical and esoteric answers. We have had both in this thread and now Mic is raising the white flag. Ken, even by your own admission, when you used an ale yeast with a lager grain bill, it was ok, but still had characteristics of an ale. Personally, I would never try to pass of an ale as a lager. It is what it is. I remember the first LHBS that I went to sold a kit that they called "Lager-A-Like", which was an ale that tried its hardest to mimic a lager... but at the end of the day it was still an ale.Since we are having the debate about it, what is it about the lager yeast going through the sugars slower than an ale yeast that is more beneficial to the beer?

[Mya]

I was confused by the genesis of this thread because I perceive Ken to be an excellent brewer who is more than capable of brewing both ales and lagers. You can understand my confusion when the question that persisted was a Brewing 101 type of a question. Problem in asking a question like that is you fish for technical and esoteric answers. We have had both in this thread and now Mic is raising the white flag.Ken, even by your own admission, when you used an ale yeast with a lager grain bill, it was ok, but still had characteristics of an ale. Personally, I would never try to pass of an ale as a lager. It is what it is.I remember the first LHBS that I went to sold a kit that they called "Lager-A-Like", which was an ale that tried its hardest to mimic a lager... but at the end of the day it was still an ale.Since we are having the debate about it, what is it about the lager yeast going through the sugars slower than an ale yeast that is more beneficial to the beer?

I think Ken knows as well, or better than most the answer to the question, but was posing it, as a platform for debate only.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

It's a heated topic that resurfaces every now and again like buying second hand sanke kegs.