14 replies to this topic

[zymot]

I tend to take my time from my initial strike to when I get start my boil. I do not do a mash out. By the time I light my burner to start the boil, my wort is at ~132°F.Take the example the brown ale I brewed this weekend. I mashed at 153-155°. I wanted a malty - undry kind of a brown. I did a good job and my mash was steady at about 154°. By the time I was ready to start the boil, my wort (in the boil kettle) had cooled to ~132°. Obviously the wort went from 154° to 132°. My wort spent some time in the 150° range. Around 150° is where you get more fermentable wort, which makes for a dryer and less malty beer.I hope you see what I am getting at. Did I undo some (or all) of the 154° mash effort when the mash and wort passed through the 150° range? Remember, the enzymes are still around because I did not denature them with a mash out. Would these latent enzymes modify the sugars further as the mash/wort passed through the 150° range?To me, this is not such a big deal when you start at 150° and go down from there. When you specifically do a 154° mash to avoid the results a 150° mash produces, I have to wonder and consider doing mashouts.zymot

[MtnBrewer]

I hope you see what I am getting at. Did I undo some (or all) of the 154° mash effort when the mash and wort passed through the 150° range?

After reading the first couple of paragraphs, this was precisely the question I was hoping you were about to answer. I think we can debate this for a day or two but the bottom line is that you possess the beer! You are in the position to answer the question for us instead of vice versa. When it ferments out, let us know.My personal speculation is that perhaps some more enzymatic activity will occur and you'll end up a little drier than you planned. I don't think it will be the same as doing an entire mash at 150°. By the way, what is your target FG?

[Slainte]

I can't answer based on personal experience, as I always do a mash-out.But from what I've read, you'll get some activity, but not as much as if you started at a lower temperature initially because you'll get some beta-A denaturing at your higher mash temperature.

[3rd party JKor]

'tis a good question. It comes down to the denaturation of α-amylase during the mash. Obviously a 168°F mashout denatures the enzymes pretty quickly, but how fast are the α-amylase molecules denatured @ 154°F? I don't know the answer. I believe I've heard that the do denature during the mash, even in the low 150s, but I'm not positive. I'm sure there is data out there. It might not be very accessible, the the experiments have surely been done.If they don't denature at all, I'd imagine you'd end up with a pretty dry beer. All those complex sugars that the β-amylase produced during the mash would be broken down into simple sugars while the wort cooled. The α-amylase is active down to 140°F, so the temperature probably spent quite a long time in the α-amylase region.Of course, there is the issue of contact. Once your wort is out of the mash tun and in the kettle, how many enzymes are carried over to the kettle?BTW, I've done the same thing at times. I usually put my burner on a very low setting after I have a little bit of wort in the kettle, so I can essentially mashout and get the wort up to boiling faster when the sparge is done. Though I've also skipped this step and had my wort cool down a bit in the kettle before starting the burner. I can't say I've noticed any excessive dryness, but I wasn't necessarily looking for it either.I actually did let a portion of my wort cool down in the batch I brewed on Sunday. I'll see how dry it comes out.

Edited by JKoravos, 08 July 2009 - 06:04 AM.

[zymot]

'tis a good question. It comes down to the denaturation of α-amylase during the mash. Obviously a 168°F mashout denatures the enzymes pretty quickly, but how fast are the α-amylase molecules denatured @ 154°F? I don't know the answer. I believe I've heard that the do denature during the mash, even in the low 150s, but I'm not positive. I'm sure there is data out there. It might not be very accessible, the the experiments have surely been done.If they don't denature at all, I'd imagine you'd end up with a pretty dry beer. All those complex sugars that the β-amylase produced during the mash would be broken down into simple sugars while the wort cooled. The α-amylase is active down to 140°F, so the temperature probably spent quite a long time in the α-amylase region.Of course, there is the issue of contact. Once your wort is out of the mash tun and in the kettle, how many enzymes are carried over to the kettle?BTW, I've done the same thing at times. I usually put my burner on a very low setting after I have a little bit of wort in the kettle, so I can essentially mashout and get the wort up to boiling faster when the sparge is done. Though I've also skipped this step and had my wort cool down a bit in the kettle before starting the burner. I can't say I've noticed any excessive dryness, but I wasn't necessarily looking for it either.I actually did let a portion of my wort cool down in the batch I brewed on Sunday. I'll see how dry it comes out.

I tasted a sample of my brown ale Tuesday night (brewed Sunday afternoon) and for being 52 hours old, it is already tasting very good. I am excited to see how good it comes out after it has aged.My question is not inspired by a trouble shooting a problem, but for from a hypothetical standpoint. I am always interested to know what the science and professionals have to say on a subject.

Of course, there is the issue of contact. Once your wort is out of the mash tun and in the kettle, how many enzymes are carried over to the kettle?

As I understand it, the enzymes are suspended in the wort, not the grain. This is why a decoction mash works. If the enzymes were in the grain, you would denature them when you boiled the grains. Because the enzymes are hanging out in the wort is what allows you to go through your decoction steps.I do mostly basic infusion mashes and I batch sparge. I have experimented with a couple calculators and getting from mash temps (148°-155°) to mash out temp (168°) is not so easy when your only option is add X qts of boiling water. If I remember correctly, you just about always end up with a water/grain ratio 2:1 at the start of the your first draining.It is common that homebrewers do not bother with a mashout. In the past I did not worry much about it. If it turns out that I am undoing my initial mash, I will consider modifying my process and see what happens.Seems to me when it comes to homebrewing, no single detail is crucial. It is the synthesis of details that allow you to make great beer. This issue is one of those details.In the case of this weekend's brown, I was anal and dialed in every detail I could think of, except including a mashout. I have brewed two browns before. One was mediocre, the other was undrinkable. If it had occurred to me, I would have done mash out, using a "It couldn't hurt" mentaility. Perhaps basser can chime in?zymot

[djinkc]

My guess is it won't make much difference. Beta amylase has a shorter half life than Alpha, and both will peter out quicker at 154 than at 150. Just guessing though.

[stellarbrew]

IIRC, beta-amylase starts to become denatured at 150 F, and even at 150 F, a typical mash will reserve only about 10% of its beta amylase viability after an hour. Assuming your temperature was fairly steady at 154 F for the first 60 minutes, I would think you would have very little beta activity remaining after that hour. Also, I think the alpha amylase will have pretty much done all it can after an hour at 154 F. So I doubt you will have a significantly more attenuable wort by letting the temperature slide after that first hour.

[Slainte]

'tis a good question. It comes down to the denaturation of α-amylase during the mash. Obviously a 168°F mashout denatures the enzymes pretty quickly, but how fast are the α-amylase molecules denatured @ 154°F? I don't know the answer. I believe I've heard that the do denature during the mash, even in the low 150s, but I'm not positive. I'm sure there is data out there. It might not be very accessible, the the experiments have surely been done.If they don't denature at all, I'd imagine you'd end up with a pretty dry beer. All those complex sugars that the β-amylase produced during the mash would be broken down into simple sugars while the wort cooled. The α-amylase is active down to 140°F, so the temperature probably spent quite a long time in the α-amylase region.Of course, there is the issue of contact. Once your wort is out of the mash tun and in the kettle, how many enzymes are carried over to the kettle?BTW, I've done the same thing at times. I usually put my burner on a very low setting after I have a little bit of wort in the kettle, so I can essentially mashout and get the wort up to boiling faster when the sparge is done. Though I've also skipped this step and had my wort cool down a bit in the kettle before starting the burner. I can't say I've noticed any excessive dryness, but I wasn't necessarily looking for it either.I actually did let a portion of my wort cool down in the batch I brewed on Sunday. I'll see how dry it comes out.

I think you have alpha and beta backwards.

[3rd party JKor]

I think you have alpha and beta backwards.

yup, I realized that after but I didn't feel like going back and changing it.

[Deerslyr]

I'm actually curious as to "why" you are having so much heat loss. Could you please explain the type of equipment you are using and the timing of your process? At first, I was wondering if you were doing an ovenight mash, but then if there is heat loss and it stabilizes at 150 for a good duration, I'm not sure that it wouldn't do what you suggest.But... as I said... the heat loss is perplexing to me. I use a 48 quart cooler and over the hour experience maybe 1 to 2 degrees of heat loss. It may not matter to you much... because after all you have beer. But it would be interesting to know more about your system.

[MtnBrewer]

I'm actually curious as to "why" you are having so much heat loss. Could you please explain the type of equipment you are using and the timing of your process? At first, I was wondering if you were doing an ovenight mash, but then if there is heat loss and it stabilizes at 150 for a good duration, I'm not sure that it wouldn't do what you suggest.But... as I said... the heat loss is perplexing to me. I use a 48 quart cooler and over the hour experience maybe 1 to 2 degrees of heat loss. It may not matter to you much... because after all you have beer. But it would be interesting to know more about your system.

I'm guessing it's because his boil kettle is not as well insulated as your 48 qt. cooler.

[djinkc]

I think you have alpha and beta backwards.

Alf and Betty, Alf cuts up the big stuff and Betty cut up the little stuff. Dave Line from a long time ago.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I'm guessing it's because his boil kettle is not as well insulated as your 48 qt. cooler.

Yeup - I experience a lot of heat loss when I transfer from tun to BK.

[ncbeerbrewer]

[quote name='zymot' date='Jul 8 2009, 12:46 AM' post='96251']I tend to take my time from my initial strike to when I get start my boil. I do not do a mash out. By the time I light my burner to start the boil, my wort is at ~132°F.When you say you take your time how much time would you say you average or mean? If I mash at 150-152 I collect runnings over a 30-40 minute timeframe. By the time I collect 7 gallons for the BK I have only dropped to maybe 140 degrees.

[zymot]

When you say you take your time how much time would you say you average or mean? If I mash at 150-152 I collect runnings over a 30-40 minute timeframe. By the time I collect 7 gallons for the BK I have only dropped to maybe 140 degrees.

I do my infusion, mash for an hour, drain, add more water, drain second time. Go to the store and get some ice, maybe have lunch, get around to starting the boil. From initial strike to lighting the boil kettle, can be 2-4 hours. Always enough time for the wort to pass through the 145°-150°.As I said, I am not necessarily trying to troubleshoot a problem, just looking at my process.Let's pretend it turns out that mashing at 154° then allowing the wort to cool down to 140° nets a wort that is same to mashing at 148°. That would be undoing my own effort. In that example I would make some adjustments to my process. Do a mash out or mash at 148° in the first place, etc.If it turns out the answer is the 148° enzymes do not change the sugars made by the 154° mash and allowing the wort to cool, does not affect the character of the wort, then that is fine too.For purposes of this thread, there is no right or wrong answer or good or bad news. Just understanding what is going on in my mashtun and boil kettle.zymot