9 replies to this topic

[armagh]

Just got a fresh batch of Fermaid-K. Notice the instructions are clear that additional DAP is not needed when using F-K. I seem to recall all of Lallemand's protocols using F-K and DAP. Did I miss a memo??

[armagh]

Where did you get it from? I've noticed that different homebrew stores put different suggestions on the packets.

Got it from 3B. I don't recall seeing that on their F-K previously, but it may be just a labeling change as you suggest. I'll dig into Lallemand's site later and see what they have to say.

[strangebrewer]

Fermaid K has always had DAP in it. To Guest's point though I don't know exactly how much and Lallemand has never released that info to my knowledge. I've seen a variety of different instructions on nutrients from different stores since they all tend to buy it in bulk and repackage. Anymore I just buy Lallemand nutrients so I go to their online documentation when I have a question.

[armagh]

And apparently they're still not saying how much DAP is in F-K. Wonder if they plan to release F-O for home use. I can think of some yeasts I would like to try with F-O. From Lallemand's website: FERMAID K^®The original and reliable FERMAID^® K is a blended complex yeast nutrient that supplies inorganic nitrogen (DAP), organic nitrogen (alpha amino nitrogen derived from yeast extract), key nutrients (magnesium sulfate, thiamine, folic acid, niacin, biotin and calcium pantothenate) and inactivated yeast.It is best to add FERMAID^® K over two additions. The first addition is made at the end of the lag phase (6 to 12 hours after yeast inoculation) and the second addition is made around 1/3 sugar depletion (the end of exponential growth and the beginning of the stationary phase).With proper rehydration and handling, the yeast cell population should be at least 4 million cells/mL at inoculation. By the time the second FERMAID^® K addition is made, this population should have grown to about 100 million cells/mL. It is critical to remember that yeast are still reproducing during the stationary phase, and to do this effectively, especially in high sugar musts, they need oxygen as well as the components of FERMAID^® K, including nitrogen (for protein synthesis), sterols and fatty acids (for maintaining alcohol resistance and permease activity). In addition, the inactivated yeast cell walls in FERMAID^® K adsorb medium-chain fatty acids that are toxic to yeast, and provide nucleation sites to help keep the yeast in suspension.If Fermaid K complex yeast nutrient is used, the recommended dosage is as follows:

[*]Add 12.5 g/hL (1 lb/1000 gal) FERMAID^® K at the end of the lag phase (beginning of alcoholic fermentation). and[*]Add 12.5 g/hL (1 lb/1000 gal) FERMAID^® K around 1/3 sugar depletion.[/list]FERMAID O^™ Fermaid O is the latest nutrient developed by our winemaking nutrient research team headed by Dr. Anne Ortiz-Julien. Fermaid O is a blend of inactivated yeast fractions rich in organic nitrogen. Fermaid O does not contain added ammonia salts (DAP) or micronutrients. The importance of organic nitrogen from yeasts is well known as a highly efficient nutrient source for wine yeasts, especially when compared to inorganic nitrogen from DAP. In addition, Fermaid O consistently produces lower levels of negative sulfur compounds, compared with DAP. With its high content of organic nitrogen, Fermaid O can help winemakers achieve steady fermentations, while limiting temperature peaks. When inorganic nitrogen (DAP) additions are NOT desired, the use of Go-Ferm® or NATSTEP™ and Fermaid O is recommended. With this combination, Go-Ferm or NATSTEP provides needed micronutrients during yeast rehydration, and Fermaid O (when added at 1/3 sugar depletion) supplies critical nutrients and survival factors to help the yeast avoid stressed conditions.


Edited by armagh, 08 November 2011 - 12:22 PM.

[strangebrewer]

And apparently they're still not saying how much DAP is in F-K. Wonder if they plan to release F-O for home use. I can think of some yeasts I would like to try with F-O. From Lallemand's website:

I've searched and searched and never been able to find just how much DAP Fermaid K contributes so I'm guessing it's proprietary info they don't plan on sharing. Without the ability to test for YAN at home (something I currently have no interest in acquiring the equipment for) I don't think we'll get an answer. Fermaid O is available for home use. Its available on various HBS web sites. You can pretty much use O and K interchangeably. The big advantage to O is since it does not contain DAP so it's friendly to young yeast and you can add it at or even pre-inoculation. K can be a better choice for severely YAN deficient musts as yeast given the choice will choose inorganic nitrogen (DAP) over organic nitrogen. I've only used O in wine where there is some YAN (but really not much) available. From my limited usage I've found O to take off a little slower but still complete the fermentation all the same as K. The benefit for me was O fermented cooler and allowed for a longer contact time with thin skinned red grapes that I wanted to get more color out of. I could see a big benefit for white wines where temperature is more of an issue.

[MtnBrewer]

If you look at Fermaid-K closely you can see the DAP crystals in there. And there isn't that much.

[strangebrewer]

If you look at Fermaid-K closely you can see the DAP crystals in there. And there isn't that much.

When I look at Fermaid-K closely I see scantily clad supermodels but that might just be me.

[armagh]

Fermaid O is available for home use. Its available on various HBS web sites. You can pretty much use O and K interchangeably. The big advantage to O is since it does not contain DAP so it's friendly to young yeast and you can add it at or even pre-inoculation. K can be a better choice for severely YAN deficient musts as yeast given the choice will choose inorganic nitrogen (DAP) over organic nitrogen.

None of my sources seem to have it. If you know of an outlet, please share.

[strangebrewer]

None of my sources seem to have it. If you know of an outlet, please share.

I've purchased it from M&M wine grape company . Use their search and type in 'Fermaid' and you'll get both K and O in the various quantities they sell it in. Everything from 10g to 10KG

[fatbloke]

Hum ? Well as I understood it, the difference between GoFerm, FermaidK and FermaidO, is that GoFerm is only for rehydrating yeast as it has little or no DAP in it. As it's potentially toxic to the rehydrating yeast cells, then FermaidK is a standard yeast nutrient that does indeed contain DAP, but is often used in conjunction with extra DAP for mead making (presumably to make up for the lack of nitrogen in honey), and FermaidO is similar to FermaidK except it's got organic nitrogen in it instead of inorganic. Which, if I've understood correctly, is better when it comes to late addition of nutrients into a ferment as inorganic nitrogen isn't absorbed by yeast cells much after the 1/3rd to 1/2 sugar breaks. So if you needed something that would help a sluggish fermentation along after that point, then either FermaidO or some other source of organic nitrogen (even boiled bread yeast is better than inorganic nitrogen as the organic nitrogen is also less likely to leave any off taste/flavour).I might be wrong, and if anyone knows, then I'd be pleased to hear.......