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how many times do you rack your cider?


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#1 positiveContact

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 06:35 AM

That is - how many times do you transfer it prior to bottling? I'm just trying to figure out my carboy usage schedule. I'm figuring 2 weeks in primary and then a transfer to a different carboy. Do I need to transfer it after 2-3 months or can I just leave it in this vessel until I bottle?

#2 MtnBrewer

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 09:54 AM

That is - how many times do you transfer it prior to bottling? I'm just trying to figure out my carboy usage schedule. I'm figuring 2 weeks in primary and then a transfer to a different carboy. Do I need to transfer it after 2-3 months or can I just leave it in this vessel until I bottle?

I would leave it in primary until it completely ferments out. Then you have a decision. If you want to age it sur lie, then just leave it there until it develops the complexity you're looking for. If you don't want to age it sur lie, then go ahead and rack it to secondary. Then when a layer of dead yeast builds up, rack it again. That should be enough until you bottle.

#3 dmtaylor

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 11:26 AM

I'm still learning, but currently I rack the cider once to secondary when it hits SG between 1.015 and 1.020 (in an attempt to slow it down and retain some sweetness). And then, of course, I rack again on bottling day. When the gravity gets quite low (<1.005), then I decide whether I want to let it keep going to dryness or hit it with sorbate and/or sulfite to retain sweetness, but I don't rack it again at that point until I'm ready to bottle it. Maybe I should? I don't know. With my handful of batches to date, I have not waited around for months for my cider to finish up. About 4 to 6 weeks has always seemed plenty long enough to wait. However, I am now playing with Brettanomyces so I'm letting those sit longer. But usually, when I'm sure it's done fermenting, I bottle it right away. I'm fermenting in buckets and milk jugs and I don't like to leave them sitting around for too long for fears of oxidation and contamination (except in the case of the Brett, I *want* the funk). If I need to clear the yeast out in a jiffy, I add gelatin, and in a matter of hours, the problem is solved and I'm ready to bottle.

#4 positiveContact

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 02:02 PM

I would leave it in primary until it completely ferments out. Then you have a decision. If you want to age it sur lie, then just leave it there until it develops the complexity you're looking for. If you don't want to age it sur lie, then go ahead and rack it to secondary. Then when a layer of dead yeast builds up, rack it again. That should be enough until you bottle.

what is the effect of leaving the cider on the lees?

#5 positiveContact

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 04:08 AM

also - a lot of different techniques here.

#6 MtnBrewer

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 08:46 AM

what is the effect of leaving the cider on the lees?

Same as for wine or mead. With the right yeast you'll get some extra mouthfeel and complexity of flavors. With the wrong yeast you'll get a mouthful of nasty.

#7 realbeerguy

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 05:23 PM

I go 3-4 months sur lie using Cote de Blanc. Keg & enjoy.

#8 TimE

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 12:01 AM

Do you have to use glass or are better bottles OK for fermentation? Does anyone secondary in kegs?

#9 positiveContact

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 06:24 AM

Better Bottles are okay for short term storage, less than 2-3 months. After that use glass or SS.

I have yet to see a study or explanation why they are not fine for long term storage. is it not possible that the O2 permeability on them is so low that it's not a big issue? I'm actually going to be following your advice here but I'm not really clear if you are just being "better safe than sorry" or if you have some real evidence to back this up. homebrewers everywhere would certainly like to know!from the horses mouth: Introduction Many hundreds of thousands of BetterBottle's unique PET carboys have been sold since their introduction in July of 2003. Already widely available in the US, Canada, Europe, Australia, and New Zealand and distributed by all the major suppliers of premium wine kits and wholesalers of home winemaking and brewing supplies, BetterBottle carboys are clearly performing extremely well. Discussion BetterBottle PET carboys are made of plastic; however, they are not like other plastic carboys. First of all, they are made of a special PETand secondly they are made in a manner that packs the plastic molecules very tightly and creates a delicate balance between microcrystaline and amorphous regions.1 They are especialy well suited for home winemaking and brewing. So, why do rumors that no plastic is acceptable persist here and there? In the first place, many people have experienced failures attempting to use carboys made from types of plastic that are known to be too permeable to oxygen and to scalp flavors (see Flavor Scalping). Secondly, the mistaken belief that all plastics are the same is occasionally reinforced by sporadic reports of failures involving BetterBottle carboys. Making a good wine or beer is an art and results do not always meet expectations, regardless of whether the winemaker or brewer uses a glass carboy or BetterBottle carboy. Yes, BetterBottle PET carboys are slightly more permeable than glass; however, it would be a mistake to assume that using a glass carboy will guarantee superior results. The traces of oxygen that penetrate BetterBottle PET carboys are incredibly difficult to measure and insignificant when compared with the amounts of oxygen diffusing through, or leaking past, traditional, liquid-filled air locks, traditional rubber stoppers (especially silicone stoppers), and most common types of flexible tubing. Moreover, oxygen diffuses into, and reacts with, wine and beer so quickly that removing a closure from a carboy, even briefly, for testing and making adjustments can allow a relatively large amount of oxygen to enter the small volume. Wine and beer essentially suck up oxygen. And racking from one open carboy to another open carboy with a siphon, a pretty standard approach when glass carboys are used, will add a great deal of oxygen in an uncontrolled manner. The uncontrolled, excessive entry of oxygen is the real problem, because the addition of the micro amounts of oxygen, depending on the wine or beer, is generally beneficial.2,3,4.5 Wineries that ferment many hundreds of gallons of wine in a single tank may actually prefer polyethylene tanks, because the volume of wine is so huge compared to the surface area of their tanks. Polyethylene, or other similarly permeable material, cannot be used to make fermenters for small batches of wine and beer, because the volumes are small compared to the surface area of the fermenters. Using a BetterBottle fermentation system, even a novice will find it easy to rack or bottle cleanly under conditions that control oxygen exposure (Use the Products tab at the top of page to access How-To Tips). 1 Liu, R Y F. et al. <a href="https://filer.case.e...paper 2004.pdf" target="TechnicalRight">Crystallinity and Oxygen Transport Properties of PET Bottle Walls. J. Applied Polymer Science. 2004 Vol. 94,671-677 (Accessed 09/09/11) 2 Kelly, M. and Wollan, D. Micro-oxygenation of Wine in Barrels. The Australian & New Zealand Grapegrower & Winemaker 2003, Technical Issue 3 Flecknoe-Brownn, A. Oxygen-permeable polyethylene vessels: a new approach to wine maturation. Grapegrower & Winemaker March 2005(Accessed 09/09/11) 4 Blaauw, D A., Mircro-Oxygenation in Contemporary Winemaking. Thesis. Cape Winemaking Academy 2009 (Accessed 05/15/10) 5 Davis, K., Science trumps tradition at Napa wine-making facility. Napa Valley Register 10/01/10 (Accessed 09/09/11)

Edited by StudsTerkel, 17 November 2011 - 06:36 AM.


#10 positiveContact

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 08:43 AM

I try to minimize storage in plastic, not just for oxygenation, but also degradation of plastic chemicals leaching into the beverage. Also consider potential scratches in plastic being a harbour for bacteria.

the better bottles are somewhat scratch resistant but the only thing that ever touches the inside of mine is a racking cane. as for plastic chemicals - I'm guessing they wouldn't leach anything you could taste but if you concern is something else I have no idea.


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