28 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

I have some 2782 Staro up & running (already made a Czech Lager and then a Vienna with it today) and I'm considering my Helles recipe next, although I would typically use 2124 in that beer. I have been looking much closer at using certain water profiles for certain beers and I would like any input on what you guys are using water-wise for a Helles. This is a finesse style and I'm thinking that water is critical. I saw a thread with Martin Brungard and Kai suggesting up to 50ppm of bicarbonate is acceptable. Crisecose... you just made a Helles, right? Also, was it Shaggaroo who said they made my Helles recipe? If so, what did your water profile look like?

[MtnBrewer]

I think the key to Helles is water low in sulfates. If you do that you can hop it a little harder with noble hops and the bitterness will be smooth and mild. If you want to go all in and try to duplicate Munich water, you can. That would be very low sulfates, moderate (50-70 ppm) calcium and high bicarb (150+ ppm). I would do that with an oktoberfest but I wouldn't do it with a helles because of the pale grist.My tap water is around 50 ppm HCO3 and I've brewed pretty decent helleseseses so I think you're safe with that level. Add enough calcium carbonate to get to 50 ppm and then add enough calcium chloride to balance out the residual alkalinity. Don't add any gypsum; you can add a tiny bit of epsom salt if you feel you need the magnesium but watch the sulfates.

[Big Nake]

Oh yeah, I forgot about using some CaC03. I was going to cut my water 50/50 but if I used 100% distilled and added 2.5g of CaC03, 2g CaCl2 and .5g MgS04 my overall water numbers (mash+sparge) would be:Ca: 51Mg: 2Na: 0Cl: 32S04: 6CaC03: 41Good Helles water?? More or less of anything?Then the recipe is straightforward:8.5 lbs of Best Malz Pils12 oz Franco-Belges Vienna12 oz Weyermann Munich5 AAU of a combination of Hersbrucker & Hallertau2782 Staro-Prague Lager yeastSingle-infusion mash at 151°.

[positiveContact]

I think the key to Helles is water low in sulfates. If you do that you can hop it a little harder with noble hops and the bitterness will be smooth and mild. If you want to go all in and try to duplicate Munich water, you can. That would be very low sulfates, moderate (50-70 ppm) calcium and high bicarb (150+ ppm). I would do that with an oktoberfest but I wouldn't do it with a helles because of the pale grist.My tap water is around 50 ppm HCO3 and I've brewed pretty decent helleseseses so I think you're safe with that level. Add enough calcium carbonate to get to 50 ppm and then add enough calcium chloride to balance out the residual alkalinity. Don't add any gypsum; you can add a tiny bit of epsom salt if you feel you need the magnesium but watch the sulfates.

I've taken to adding a little bit of gypsum to my last two oktoberfests and I like the results. it sharpens them up a little which I enjoy. maybe this is "wrong" but I like it

[MtnBrewer]

Good Helles water?? More or less of anything?

I think it looks fine.

Then the recipe is straightforward:8.5 lbs of Best Malz Pils12 oz Franco-Belges Vienna12 oz Weyermann Munich5 AAU of a combination of Hersbrucker & Hallertau2782 Staro-Prague Lager yeastSingle-infusion mash at 151°.

Similar to mine. I use 12 oz. of CaraHell instead of the Vienna. Also I do some aroma hopping. I would have thought that would be verboten. However I read the Classic Beers book on the style and Horst's recipes included late addition hops. Some recipes included flameout additions and some even included additions after flameout during the chill. The key there is that the hops need to be noble or close to it. I used WGV of all things one time and it was excellent.

I've taken to adding a little bit of gypsum to my last two oktoberfests and I like the results. it sharpens them up a little which I enjoy. maybe this is "wrong" but I like it

You'd like my o'fest beers then. I've ruined more than I want to admit by going just a little bit over the top on the hops. It's hard to resist adding just liiiiiiittle bit more hops when most of what you make is pale ales and IPAs.

[positiveContact]

You'd like my o'fest beers then. I've ruined more than I want to admit by going just a little bit over the top on the hops. It's hard to resist adding just liiiiiiittle bit more hops when most of what you make is pale ales and IPAs.

ruined is subjective! I've been doing just FWH and a start of the boil addition. Are you getting too much bitterness or too much hop flavor?

[MtnBrewer]

ruined is subjective!

Troof!

I've been doing just FWH and a start of the boil addition. Are you getting too much bitterness or too much hop flavor?

Too much bitterness mainly. The bitterness kept the malt flavors in check and to me festbier is all about the malt. The problem is now resolved but I went through a few batches before I learned to hold myself back. The hop hand is strong in this one.

[Big Nake]

Okay, I'm going with that water profile then. I forgot to show that my recipe also includes 4 oz of Aromatic for that extra-added maltiness. I did read in a few different reviews that getting a little hop aroma was acceptable so I'll just consider that personal preference. The Hofbrau Original is fantastic and perfectly balanced. So does anyone have an opinion on a single infusion mash temp? I also read a style review that suggested that even though the emphasis here is "malt", the finish should be dry. What say you?

[shaggaroo]

Hi Ken,Yes it was me who brewed your Helles recipe. For water, I cut my tap water 50/50 with distilled water and had this mineral content (all in ppm):Ca²⁺ 20Mg²⁺ 5HCO₃^– 45Na⁺ 12Cl^– 19SO₄^2– 17I thought it turned out great.

Edited by shaggaroo, 22 August 2011 - 08:09 AM.

[positiveContact]

Okay, I'm going with that water profile then. I forgot to show that my recipe also includes 4 oz of Aromatic for that extra-added maltiness. I did read in a few different reviews that getting a little hop aroma was acceptable so I'll just consider that personal preference. The Hofbrau Original is fantastic and perfectly balanced. So does anyone have an opinion on a single infusion mash temp? I also read a style review that suggested that even though the emphasis here is "malt", the finish should be dry. What say you?

I've never felt the finish should be super dry. I also use aromatic in my o'fest for maltiness and I really like it. I don't have my recipe in front of me so I'm not sure what mash temp I use. I think something like 150-151F. I do however use some carapils.

[Big Nake]

Okay, my water numbers are a smidge lower than the ones posted by Shaggaroo. Thanks for posting those.Final recipe is going to look like this:8 lbs Best Malz Pilsner12 oz Weyermann Munich12 oz Franco-Belges Vienna4 oz Aromatic1.5 oz Hersbrucker pellets 3.4% for 60 mins (5.1 AAU)Wyeast 2782 Staro-Prague lager yeastOG: 1.054, FG: 1.013, IBU: 22, SRM: 6, ABV: 5.2%I'll split the difference on the single-infusion mash temp and shoot for 150.5° for 90 minutes. Any further evidence that the mash temp should be different is welcome. I realize this is not really the right yeast for this but I see the final beer coming out quite nicely. Thanks for the responses Beerheads!

[positiveContact]

Troof!Too much bitterness mainly. The bitterness kept the malt flavors in check and to me festbier is all about the malt. The problem is now resolved but I went through a few batches before I learned to hold myself back. The hop hand is strong in this one.

you could always age it for a long time and let the IBUs fade

[MtnBrewer]

Okay, I'm going with that water profile then. I forgot to show that my recipe also includes 4 oz of Aromatic for that extra-added maltiness. I did read in a few different reviews that getting a little hop aroma was acceptable so I'll just consider that personal preference. The Hofbrau Original is fantastic and perfectly balanced. So does anyone have an opinion on a single infusion mash temp? I also read a style review that suggested that even though the emphasis here is "malt", the finish should be dry. What say you?

I mash at 150°F. Mine might be a hair on the sweet side due to the crystal malt. I treat it almost like a pale o'fest, except for the aroma hop additions.

[Big Nake]

I mash at 150°F. Mine might be a hair on the sweet side due to the crystal malt. I treat it almost like a pale o'fest, except for the aroma hop additions.

Okay, 150.5° it is! Should be right in the middle of the zip code. I plan to make this beer next week after my Vienna (made yesterday) is done. Cheers and thanks again gang.

[Humperdink]

I done several helleses (i?) some really traditional with munich water and others with my take on what I enjoy and thought would work well with this type of beer. That said, I like my interpretation better (surprise surprise). I stick to an even ratio chloride to sulphate, bringing my sulphate numbers up by adding epsom instead of gypsum to also pick up my magnesium numbers. I should add my muni water is almost RO is ppm of everything. I have to build my water for every beer I make. Now I've come to actually like my helleses (i) to be more balanced than malt forward, much like a more sessionable gravity dortmunder with considerably softer water. The helles I currently have on is actually fairly hop forward. More so than I usually like... to the point where I can't really call it a helles at all. Not my intention, but now I've found the upper bounds to my interpretation to the style.Cheers!

[Big Nake]

I done several helleses (i?) some really traditional with munich water and others with my take on what I enjoy and thought would work well with this type of beer. That said, I like my interpretation better (surprise surprise). I stick to an even ratio chloride to sulphate, bringing my sulphate numbers up by adding epsom instead of gypsum to also pick up my magnesium numbers. I should add my muni water is almost RO is ppm of everything. I have to build my water for every beer I make. Now I've come to actually like my helleses (i) to be more balanced than malt forward, much like a more sessionable gravity dortmunder with considerably softer water. The helles I currently have on is actually fairly hop forward. More so than I usually like... to the point where I can't really call it a helles at all. Not my intention, but now I've found the upper bounds to my interpretation to the style.Cheers!

So what do your overall water numbers look like for the style? If you post that and I take Shagg's numbers along with the rest of the info in this thread, I can make a better guess and put the water numbers where I would like them for my tastebuds. Lamecose? Did you lose a bet or something?

[MtnBrewer]

Okay, 150.5° it is! Should be right in the middle of the zip code. I plan to make this beer next week after my Vienna (made yesterday) is done. Cheers and thanks again gang.

If you can hit a half a degree strike temperature... :smilielol:I think there's not much difference between 150 and 152. After that there's a pretty big difference.

[positiveContact]

If you can hit a half a degree strike temperature... :smilielol:I think there's not much difference between 150 and 152. After that there's a pretty big difference.

I'm usually within half a degree (+/-). I've got my system pretty well dialed in and I don't change much.

[Humperdink]

So what do your overall water numbers look like for the style? If you post that and I take Shagg's numbers along with the rest of the info in this thread, I can make a better guess and put the water numbers where I would like them for my tastebuds. Lamecose? Did you lose a bet or something?

I'd have to look at home to be sure, but something like:50-55 calcium13 magnesium~45-55 both chloride and sulphate trying to get as close to 1:1 as practicaland from memory about 10 caco3 this is the one I'm having a harder time remembering off hand.If memory serves, that should be in the ballpark for a ~3srm helles.Lamecose... yeah. I missed a meetup of blewbies a while back and haven't lived it down, pretty consistently being called lame. I figured, maybe if I own it for a while I'll live it down... not yet though.And I had way late notice and it was a almost 2 hour drive.

[Big Nake]

If you can hit a half a degree strike temperature... :smilielol:I think there's not much difference between 150 and 152. After that there's a pretty big difference.

Thermpen, FTW!