26 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

After 25+ years of drinking beer and 12 years brewing beer, I realize that I like 'clean' beers. I generally don't care for beers with complex profiles, smoked beers, wood beers, ultra high ABV or IBU beers, etc. That said, I see a number of brewers who have been making sour beers like Berliner Weiss and many people making Saisons. I asked a question in response to another recent thread where I asked about a certain Belgian yeast whether I would like a beer fermented with this yeast (I forget the strain... maybe 3711) and the answer was NO. I believe MTN said, "if you like flavor in your beer, this yeast is not for you". Point taken. So are there any easy ways for someone to make a beer that was "slightly" sour and/or tart without using bugs or having the batch take a long time? I know 2565 can create a bit of tartness but I guess I'm thinking more along the lines of a Belgian yeast that has this character. But I don't want overly esterty, phenolic or complex/spicy. Thanks gang.

[positiveContact]

After 25+ years of drinking beer and 12 years brewing beer, I realize that I like 'clean' beers. I generally don't care for beers with complex profiles, smoked beers, wood beers, ultra high ABV or IBU beers, etc. That said, I see a number of brewers who have been making sour beers like Berliner Weiss and many people making Saisons. I asked a question in response to another recent thread where I asked about a certain Belgian yeast whether I would like a beer fermented with this yeast (I forget the strain... maybe 3711) and the answer was NO. I believe MTN said, "if you like flavor in your beer, this yeast is not for you". Point taken. So are there any easy ways for someone to make a beer that was "slightly" sour and/or tart without using bugs or having the batch take a long time? I know 2565 can create a bit of tartness but I guess I'm thinking more along the lines of a Belgian yeast that has this character. But I don't want overly esterty, phenolic or complex/spicy. Thanks gang.

I think dry nottingham can do this to some degree. have you tried that yeast?

[Big Nake]

I think dry nottingham can do this to some degree. have you tried that yeast?

Really? Isn't that supposed to be a relatively neutral English strain?

[positiveContact]

Really? Isn't that supposed to be a relatively neutral English strain?

My link

[SchwanzBrewer]

Let one of yours ferment a bit high. I got a very slight sourness to the 2nd keg of KSA I made (could have been the long time on the yeast cake/chilling fridge?)It was still good.Cheers,Rich

[Thirsty]

Also I remember seeing a while back about throwing a handful of unmashed grain into the boil can give some acidic notes. Can't exactly remember where I saw it, but something to research if interested. Sounds easy enough, and could split a batch and do just a small quanitity as a satellite "tester".

[Big Nake]

Interesting. I'm envisioning something that is "blonde" (maybe pilsner malt, some Munich or Vienna and possibly 6 ounces of Acid malt) clean hops maybe only at the beginning and then fermented with the Nottingham to get a sort of summer ale that had a little tartness to it. Maybe add a lemon to it or something? Interesting situation with the Nottingham because I don't really use dry yeast at all... so I'd never heard that about it.

[djinkc]

Just guessing but can't you dose it with a little lactic acid? I've never tried it..........

[MtnBrewer]

Just guessing but can't you dose it with a little lactic acid? I've never tried it..........

That was going to be my suggestion too. Or use acidulated malt, which amounts to the same thing.

[Big Nake]

I have a buddy who makes a nice Kolsch (won the Sam Adams Longshot with it) and he tried using 4 ounces of acid malt in it but could not detect it so he bumped it to 8 ounces where he said it was too much. So he went with 6 ounces and said it added the perfect amount of twang to this beer. I would think the 2565 could add to that character because it's got a little bit more happening than just a standard neutral yeast. I have used lactic acid to lower the mash pH but have never used it as a "flavoring" agent. How much do you think it would take to make it "pleasantly noticeable" and where would it be added... mash, sparge, BK? I'm also considering a flavoring of some sort... maybe bitter or sweet orange peel or something. This is just something I've been knocking around. So nobody knows of a Belgian yeast that would do this and be "low on the character scale"... or are they all overly assertive?

[MtnBrewer]

I have a buddy who makes a nice Kolsch (won the Sam Adams Longshot with it) and he tried using 4 ounces of acid malt in it but could not detect it so he bumped it to 8 ounces where he said it was too much. So he went with 6 ounces and said it added the perfect amount of twang to this beer. I would think the 2565 could add to that character because it's got a little bit more happening than just a standard neutral yeast. I have used lactic acid to lower the mash pH but have never used it as a "flavoring" agent. How much do you think it would take to make it "pleasantly noticeable" and where would it be added... mash, sparge, BK? I'm also considering a flavoring of some sort... maybe bitter or sweet orange peel or something. This is just something I've been knocking around. So nobody knows of a Belgian yeast that would do this and be "low on the character scale"... or are they all overly assertive?

Since you already have a good idea of how much acid malt to use, I would go with that. There is about 2-3 grams of lactic acid in 6 oz. of acid malt, so you could just try adding that much acid to the boil.

[Big Nake]

Since you already have a good idea of how much acid malt to use, I would go with that. There is about 2-3 grams of lactic acid in 6 oz. of acid malt, so you could just try adding that much acid to the boil.

I have some amount of acid malt in my inventory and I have been using it in some German Pilsners but I'm not sure how much I have left. Thanks for the 2-3 grams figure because I would never know that. I could whip out my gram scale, add the acid to the hopper and weight out 2.5 grams (or something) and that to the boil. I will formulate a recipe and post back with the specifics. Thanks gang.

[MtnBrewer]

I have some amount of acid malt in my inventory and I have been using it in some German Pilsners but I'm not sure how much I have left. Thanks for the 2-3 grams figure because I would never know that. I could whip out my gram scale, add the acid to the hopper and weight out 2.5 grams (or something) and that to the boil. I will formulate a recipe and post back with the specifics. Thanks gang.

If you have a pipette (and who doesn't?), 2.5 grams would be about 2 mL.

[Big Nake]

When playing with all of this stuff, what do you have to watch out for as far as "bugs in your brewery"? Is using lactic acid or acid malt dangerous in terms of contaminating other things? What about a "sour mash"? Is that the type of thing where I would want to keep equipment or other beers at a distance? It occurs to me that there are a zillion beers I want to make and this is just something that I have been thinking about lately. If I brewed for the next 100 years, I'm not sure I would have enough time to brew all of the beers I envision.

[djinkc]

When playing with all of this stuff, what do you have to watch out for as far as "bugs in your brewery"? Is using lactic acid or acid malt dangerous in terms of contaminating other things? What about a "sour mash"? Is that the type of thing where I would want to keep equipment or other beers at a distance? It occurs to me that there are a zillion beers I want to make and this is just something that I have been thinking about lately. If I brewed for the next 100 years, I'm not sure I would have enough time to brew all of the beers I envision.

I can't imagine why acid malt or lactic acid would be a problem. Sour mash, just clean and sanitize the MT and equipment that transfer to the BK I guess. All you do there is incubate the lactobacillus that is always in the malt to exponential levels. Just postulating though........

[Big Nake]

I can't imagine why acid malt or lactic acid would be a problem. Sour mash, just clean and sanitize the MT and equipment that transfer to the BK I guess. All you do there is incubate the lactobacillus that is always in the malt to exponential levels. Just postulating though........

I was thinking along the same lines. Once past the boil, probably not much to worry about. Cheers.

[Big Nake]

I played with this recipe a little this morning and thought that 'simple' would be the best bet here. If it doesn't have the slight sourness/tartness, it will still be a "gold ale" that will be drinkable and I could always adjust later, if necessary. Here's what I'm thinking:Slightly sour/tart Blonde Ale7 lbs German Pilsner Malt1 lbs Munich Light1 lbs Wheat Malt (single infusion mash @ 150°).8 oz Mt. Hood pellets @ 6.1% for 60 mins (4.9 AAU).2 oz Mt. Hood pellets @ 6.1% for 1 min2ml lactic acid added to the boil (add this at the beginning or end of boil or does it not matter?)fermented with Nottingham dryOG: 1.051, FG: 1.013, IBU: 21, SRM: 4, ABV: 4.9%I considered adding some spice or fruit (coriander, lemon zest, bitter or sweet orange peel...) but figured I would make it "as is" first and see how it comes out. Then I can dress it up or use it as a base for something else later. Thoughts?

[beach]

The recipe looks good to me and I've been thinking about the same kind of thing also. I'd like a tart beer but don't want to bring any bugs into the brewery. How about some Sorachi Ace for late hops? I hear those have a lemon flavor and aroma profile.Beach*waits for Ken to brew this and report back*

[harryfrog]

I have heard of people using lactic acid as late as the keg to adjust acidity in a beer - keep that in mind.Also, I'd be afraid that with a mash temp of 150 and using the nottingham yeast you will end up with a much lower FG (probably 1.008). I've experienced that with US-05 as well - and sometimes it can work, but sometimes can be too dry. Just something to keep in mind.

[Big Nake]

I will definitely report back if I make this beer. I do not have Nottingham on hand so I'll need to get that, but otherwise I have everything else I would need. The Sorachi hops is an interesting idea but I have to admit that I rarely use hops that I am unfamiliar with because I just hate to make a beer and have it ruined by a hop profile that I do not care for. I know that homebrewing is all about experimenting but I typically stick to clean hops like Nobles, Mt. Hood, Magnum, Liberty, Sterling, Vanguard, Crystal, etc. I thought I remember someone saying that they tried some Sorachi Ace and had to throw the beer away! Ugh.