27 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

I mentioned in another thread how I picked up some Stiegl and how good it was. I started thinking about the distinct flavor that you get from beers like this along with something like Paulaner Premium Pils, Warsteiner, Bitburger and others. I started a CONVERSATION on NB and got some surprising information that I wanted to share with you guys. I realize that many homebrewers either avoid this style or do not have the proper temp control for lagers, but the one post (from dr.bob) had some things in it that I had not heard before. The ingredients, mash schedule & short/quick decoction plus the hop schedule were all things that I had not seen mentioned before. I will paste his one post here but the whole conversation is in the first link. I plan to do something like this either late this week or early next week. Here's dr.bob from that thread...Hi All:Can't resist a good discussion on German Pils - some of the best beers in the world, in my opinion.I've been pursuing the perfect homebrewed German pils for about 2 years now, and have gotten pretty close with the following recipe and process. By "pretty close", I mean that this beer is indistinguishable from the various German Pils I used to drink while stationed in Schweinfurt, Germany (Bavaria). Of course, Bavarian pils are going to be slightly less hoppy and generally "softer" than some of the northern pils, they are still nice malty while also hoppy and crisp.Grain:8.5lbs german pils malt (weyermann, best, or global malt all will work fine)1lb flaked barley ("chit malt" is commonly used in germany, and this is as close as you can get)1/4 lb acid maltHops:1 oz Hallertauer Tradition - first wort hop1.5 oz Hallertauer Mittelfruh - 10 min.5 oz Hallertauer Mittelfruh - 5 minsMash4.88 gallons reverse osmosis + 2.1g CaSO4 and 1.4g CaClpH =~5.2 or 5.3142F x 60 minutesAt 40 mins, remove 10 qts thick mash and boil x 10 minutesReturn decoction to mash for 158F158F x 30 minSparge4.25 gallons reverse osmosis + .33ml lactic acid, 1.8g CaSO4 and 1g CaClBoil:90 minutesPost -boil pH = ~5.1-5.2Yeast:I currently used White Labs #820, but have had good results with WL830 and 800Oxygenate x30 seconds with pure O2I've brewed this recipe 9 times, and have made several adjustments along the way. The most important variable, in my experience, is the pH of the final product. You want it low (around 4.1) - this makes for a "crisp" experience. Of course, to get to the 4.1, you need to make sure pH is on target throughout... 5.1 post boil, and about 5.3 in the mash. As soon as I discovered this, my pils began to taste as if I was back in Germany at a small local brewery along the Main River tipping back half liters of pils vom fassI've also discovered (anecdotally) that the flaked barley is substantially acidic... it pushes down pH more than an equivalent amount of base malt. The above water recipe may not appear to give you the right pH but, in my experience, the flaked barley will take the pH down .2 or .3.Prost!-Bob

[No Party JKor]

That is some interesting info. I may give that a shot for my next Pils.

[Big Nake]

Yeah, I thought it was surprising... no early addition of hops, just a FWH plus two late additions. A short, 10 minute decoction raising the temp from 142 to 158. The addition of flaked barley to mimic the effects of "chit malt" which I had never heard of. I am working out the water because "as is", the numbers look a little funky. I'm ordering the stuff I need for this and plan to make it next week... I already have some 830 up & running so I'll use that.

[positiveContact]

the winter of 2011/2012 I'm going to try out a pils of some sort. never actually made one. I'm guessing the water chemistry is the biggest factor here and the decoction is less of a factor. I could be wrong though.

[MtnBrewer]

MJW, I think you're right about the water chemistry. Also the type of hops is a pretty big deal. This is one case where nothing but noble hops or something really close (like Tradition) will do. My personal favorite is Tettnang. The spicy flavor just seems to fit with the crispness of this beer.

[No Party JKor]

I will say the GPils I brewed last year was really close to Bitburger. I didn't do anything fancy with it. I was actually surprised how close it came.

[Big Nake]

I am checking on the water profile specifically because when I enter my water numbers (100% distilled) plus the additions mentioned in the post, I am low on calcium, zero magnesium, sodium and bicarb and my sulfates are twice as high as the chlorides (So4=66, Chloride=35) and even though a lot of this is new to me, that water profile sounds troublesome. Maybe it's perfect & I'm keeping an open mind but I want to make sure.What they explained over there is that the 142° for an hour will ensure high fermentability and then the short decoction plus the additional 30 minutes at 158° will produce some body & malt character. I'm not the most observant brewer around but I can't remember seeing this particular mash schedule and best of all... I think I can actually DO this! Cheers.

[denny]

"this beer is indistinguishable from the various German Pils"...when someone uses the word "indistinguishable", I'm gonna have to taste the beer before I can give him a lot of credence. Especially when so much of his techniques flies in the face of other things I've read and experienced. He may be right on the money, but that one word makes me wonder....

Edited by denny, 25 April 2011 - 10:42 AM.

[Big Nake]

"this beer is indistinguishable from the various German Pils"...when someone uses the word "indistinguishable", I'm gonna have to taste the beer before I can give him a lot of credence. Especially when so much of his techniques flies in the face of other things I've read and experienced. He may be right on the money, but that one word makes me wonder....

I had a similar thought but when I realized that he had spent a good amount of time drinking these beers in Bavaria and also the fact that he made this same recipe 9 times... I let my suspicion fade away a little bit. Denny, what things do you see in his process/recipe that "fly in the face" of convention? Just curious to weigh out the "possibly cool" factor with the "this is probably BS" factor. He definitely has stuff going on here that I have not tried.

[denny]

The flaked barley, the FWH, and no real mention of what the water profile is. I'm not saying he's not right, just that his comments (maybe more than his process) make me wonder. OTOH, I do believe he's right on with the pH comments. I made several batches of German pils last winter and the one that came out the best was t he one where I cut my water most heavily with distilled water and made big adjustments to the water chemistry. Others where I didn't go as extreme with the water seemed a bit "flabbier".

[Big Nake]

The flaked barley, the FWH, and no real mention of what the water profile is. I'm not saying he's not right, just that his comments (maybe more than his process) make me wonder. OTOH, I do believe he's right on with the pH comments. I made several batches of German pils last winter and the one that came out the best was t he one where I cut my water most heavily with distilled water and made big adjustments to the water chemistry. Others where I didn't go as extreme with the water seemed a bit "flabbier".

Yeah, I think the water is a big deal on this beer. I have heard that Germans love to FWH, I don't know if that's nonsense or what. The flaked barley is weird, I'll give you that... but it's supposed to come close to this German product "chit malt" which is just-barely-modified. On the water, if starting with RO or distilled, his numbers are easy to arrive at, I'm just not too keen on the amount of gypsum he's adding. I ran the numbers and I think I need a second opinion because it seems whacked out to me. I think I have a good handle on the pH part so I'm glad you're saying this is one of the keys... hopefully I'll have it down. Cheers.

[denny]

Yeah, I think the water is a big deal on this beer. I have heard that Germans love to FWH, I don't know if that's nonsense or what. The flaked barley is weird, I'll give you that... but it's supposed to come close to this German product "chit malt" which is just-barely-modified. On the water, if starting with RO or distilled, his numbers are easy to arrive at, I'm just not too keen on the amount of gypsum he's adding. I ran the numbers and I think I need a second opinion because it seems whacked out to me. I think I have a good handle on the pH part so I'm glad you're saying this is one of the keys... hopefully I'll have it down. Cheers.

Yeah, I know that FWH has been used in Germany, but I'm not sure how many current breweries do it. And I've heard of chit malt and it's similarity to flaked barley, but again I'm not sure how many current brewers are using it. It may very well be that both of those are currently done, but I haven't been able to find any evidence of it. On the water, I'll try to remember to look up the water treatment for the one I referred to. We can see if there might be any correlation to Bob's water.

[Big Nake]

Yeah, I know that FWH has been used in Germany, but I'm not sure how many current breweries do it. And I've heard of chit malt and it's similarity to flaked barley, but again I'm not sure how many current brewers are using it. It may very well be that both of those are currently done, but I haven't been able to find any evidence of it. On the water, I'll try to remember to look up the water treatment for the one I referred to. We can see if there might be any correlation to Bob's water.

Thanks Denny, I appreciate that. I feel like if I can get the water right on this, I'll give myself a much better chance of success. Cheers.

[Brauer]

I am checking on the water profile specifically because when I enter my water numbers (100% distilled) plus the additions mentioned in the post, I am low on calcium, zero magnesium, sodium and bicarb and my sulfates are twice as high as the chlorides (So4=66, Chloride=35) and even though a lot of this is new to me, that water profile sounds troublesome.

Actually, the water looks just about right to me in theory, if you add what he's adding to distilled water (except that I'd add everything to the mash, but that's me). The calcium is right near 50 ppm, just enough to get the job done, but little enough to stay out of the way. It's said that that's what Pilsner Urquell uses.The SO4 is reasonably low, but enough to keep it from being flabby, yet the Cl should help balance it with a little fullness to the malt. A little Na wouldn't hurt, but it's probably not needed either.Carbonate is inappropriate for a Pils.There's no need to add any Mg. Apparently there's plenty in the grain itself and it won't have a positive effect on the flavor.

[Big Nake]

Carbonate is inappropriate for a Pils.

Where should it be?

[Brauer]

Where should it be?

Carbonate should be very low and I don't think you need any unless you need it to balance the acidity of Crystal, toasted, or roasted malts. My base water has 10 ppm CO3 and I don't add any to my pale beer. I wouldn't add any Carbonate to distilled water, either. Pilsner Malt in distilled water should have a pH around 5.7, so you just want to add salts or acid to bring that down to about 5.4, not salts that will push the pH back up.

[Big Nake]

Carbonate should be very low and I don't think you need any unless you need it to balance the acidity of Crystal, toasted, or roasted malts. My base water has 10 ppm CO3 and I don't add any to my pale beer. I wouldn't add any Carbonate to distilled water, either. Pilsner Malt in distilled water should have a pH around 5.7, so you just want to add salts or acid to bring that down to about 5.4, not salts that will push the pH back up.

That's what makes it tough for me & my water... with a bicarbonate number of 138 (total alkalinity of 113), I have to cut it. I add some salts to the sparge too because with just straight distilled water going into the sparge, I wasn't sure how the pH would be. I will be making this beer next week and I will report back on the brewday. Cheers!

[Brauer]

I add some salts to the sparge too because with just straight distilled water going into the sparge, I wasn't sure how the pH would be.

The pH should be fine through a distilled water sparge, there's nothing there to raise the pH.

[Big Nake]

I finally got this beer into secondary today 5/31 after 28 days in primary. It sat in the fridge set to 47° for three weeks and then sat on my cool basement floor for a week. I am making a Festbier today and using the 830 that this pilsner was fermented with. I took a sample and as best I can tell from a warm, flat sample, the beer is outstanding. There is quite a bit of hop flavor and aroma which makes sense with 2 ounces added in the last 10 minutes but I could always adjust that on another attempt if I wanted to. The beer is as clear as can be and has a dark gold color to it. Smooth character but a good spicy punch from the Hallertau Mittelfruh. I think the process, recipe, mash schedule, hop schedule, etc. are all right on... at least as far as I can tell. I would also like to take this opportunity to profess my love for this yeast... White Labs 830. My whole kitchen now smells like it and it's got the greatest character to me. Thanks to everyone for the guidance on this beer. I plan to leave it in secondary for a few weeks and then get it to a keg, chill it and force carb it but then leave it at 35° for 6-8 weeks before busting it out. So it will lager in the keg inside my "on-deck" fridge. I'll update again when the beer is being served.

[orudis]

Interesting, about a year ago I brewed a pils with a friend on his gargantuo 40 gallon brewery, and he added flaked barley. I sort of scoffed at the time, but the beer turned out great, "indistinguishable" from Konig, which is one of my favorite german pils. I wonder if the purpose of the flaked barley is to deal with the pH and nothing else, in which case it may not be necessary depending on your water situation.