16 replies to this topic

[DubbelEntendre]

I know there is plenty of software to calculate recipes, but I have a spreadsheet that I calculate mine with. Currently I use a vertical lookup with choices from a drop down list to select the type of hop (whole vs. pellet) and the duration of the boil and select the utilization from a table that is pulled from "Designing Great Beers". I want to be more precise in my calculations and use the Glenn Tinseth formulas found here https://www.realbeer...s/research.html. According to my test calculations his research seems to be based entirely on whole hops. In order to adapt the formula to work with pellet hops and match up with the table in "Designing..." it seems that a correction factor of 1.25 is needed. Anyone else calculate these numbers with a spreadsheet or by hand and notice the same thing?

[Stout_fan]

No.But I'll agree on Tinseth.Others prefer Rager and say Tinseth is out to lunch.I'm the other way. Guess it all depends upon your system.

[chuck_d]

I use a spreadsheet too I use the formulas presented in the link below rather than a table lookup for calculating Utilization & IBUs. Basically, the best I've found is all either guess work or undocumented data for the differences between pellet & leaf hop utilization. Everyone agrees that pellet utilization is higher, but then all the data is basically just like, hey I made this chart, see look at this table. Okay, but where did the data come from? Mosher has two charts in Brewer's Companion and Holle has two tables in A Handbook of Basic Brewing Calculations based on those charts. The link below I think suggests that since Rager is for pellet hops that you use 10% more if you bag them and 10% more if you use leaf. I'm pretty sure those numbers came from thin air. Garetz formulas allows you to incorporate a Pellet Factor and Leaf Factor, but I suppose you can do that with any formula you want to use even Tinseth. I just use Tinseth and go with it. Utilization is highly system dependent anyways, and you cannot measure it at home so precision isn't exactly that big of a concern for me. So many thing can affect your utilization, like how long you take to chill the wort that this is one calculation I don't feel the need to stress over too much.https://www.realbeer.../FAQ.html#units

[djinkc]

Since I bag all my pellets I don't bother distinguishing between whole and pellet anymore. I think the little I lose with my bagging setup leaves me where I would be with whole hops.Guess I'm using Tinseth since I use tastybrew's calculator a lot. I need to break down and buy some software. I'd rather go with Rager - gotta support the KC guys.......

Edited by dj in kc, 04 June 2009 - 06:24 PM.

[No Party JKor]

Dude, I went to a rager the other night.

[djinkc]

Dude, I went to a rager the other night.

Yeah, probably left all your IBUs there too.

[zymot]

Seems to me there are plenty of variables in play here.True AA value of the specific hops you have. Think about it, how many samples do they test? There has to be variance from one hop bine compared to a different hop bine.Age. How old are they? Do you know anything beyond "2008 crop"How were they stored? Long time in a big pile, short time bailed. Or quickly bailed. What about temperature swings between the day they were pick and the day put them in the brew kettle?I am of the opinion that different hops might measure out to the same AA%. But various types 8% AA will have a perceived bitterness level.Rager Vs Tinseth, one is accurate and the other is wrong? If so, which one?FWH, shouldn't make a big difference, but it does.I recall (somewhere) that BJCP certified judges cold not identify beers with a difference of 10 IBU, or something like that.Whole Vs Pellets? Just one of the many variables in the empirical black art of hopping a beer.zymot

[Stout_fan]

... Rager Vs Tinseth, one is accurate and the other is wrong? If so, which one?...zymot

Neither is wrong. Pick the one that most closely matches your systems results.

[MolBasser]

Seems to me there are plenty of variables in play here.True AA value of the specific hops you have. Think about it, how many samples do they test? There has to be variance from one hop bine compared to a different hop bine.Age. How old are they? Do you know anything beyond "2008 crop"How were they stored? Long time in a big pile, short time bailed. Or quickly bailed. What about temperature swings between the day they were pick and the day put them in the brew kettle?I am of the opinion that different hops might measure out to the same AA%. But various types 8% AA will have a perceived bitterness level.Rager Vs Tinseth, one is accurate and the other is wrong? If so, which one?FWH, shouldn't make a big difference, but it does.I recall (somewhere) that BJCP certified judges cold not identify beers with a difference of 5 IBU, or something like that.Whole Vs Pellets? Just one of the many variables in the empirical black art of hopping a beer.zymot

FTFYBut your right the lack of storage data for homebrewers and their hops leads to WILDLY fluctuating BU values for finished beers.I've had 20 BU variations on what I calculated in ProMash with LHBS hops and what the beer-a-lyzer at work said I had.BrewBasser

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

FTFYBut your right the lack of storage data for homebrewers and their hops leads to WILDLY fluctuating BU values for finished beers.I've had 20 BU variations on what I calculated in ProMash with LHBS hops and what the beer-a-lyzer at work said I had.BrewBasser

That's pretty wild. In terms of percentage - how far off were you? I would expect the absolute error to increase as the amount of hops goes up.

[MolBasser]

Like 30% off.The actual BUs were much lower than the calculated. My guess is the hops were abused before I got them.BrewBasser

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Like 30% off.The actual BUs were much lower than the calculated. My guess is the hops were abused before I got them.BrewBasser

I would expect this is the most common direction for the error to head.

[DubbelEntendre]

Neither is wrong. Pick the one that most closely matches your systems results.

How do I pick the one that most closely matches my system results? I have a pretty good palette, but I don't have one of these:

FTFYBut your right the lack of storage data for homebrewers and their hops leads to WILDLY fluctuating BU values for finished beers.I've had 20 BU variations on what I calculated in ProMash with LHBS hops and what the beer-a-lyzer at work said I had.BrewBasser

And a 5 IBU difference might not be perceptible in a heavily hopped beer say 60+ IBUs in a 1.060 wort, but what about the difference in two 1.040 beers one with 15 and one with 20 IBUs?Also what do you make the cut-off point? Is it 6 IBUs, 10?Basser, how different of a bitterness profile did you notice in your beer that came up 20 IBUs/30% short?

[MolBasser]

It wasn't too bad as it was my typical moster ales. Like 70BU and 8%abv.BrewBasser

[chuck_d]

How do I pick the one that most closely matches my system results? I have a pretty good palette, but I don't have one of these:

I don't think it really matters so long as you keep using the same one. Rager seemed to be the most used one years back, but now it seems that Tinseth is more commonly used. I use Tinseth. All that really matters is that the number gives you a relative indicator of bitterness in your beer and then you can work with it. It doesn't matter if it say 60 or 48, if you think the beer is too bitter then the next time you compose the recipe you just go below whatever number was there. It's the control that using any number system gives you that matters, not what the number actually is especially since you'll never measure your IBUs anyways.If you want to achieve more control, I would recommend trying account for hops aging rather than worrying which is better Rager or Tinseth. You can use hops that are stored in your freezer for a year or two, but if you are using the same AA% that is written on the bag when composing your recipe with said hops, it really doesn't matter which bitterness model you use because both are going to over estimate your bitterness levels.

[zymot]

How do I pick the one that most closely matches my system results? I have a pretty good palette, but I don't have one of these:

My advice is pick one and stick with it. As you go along, you will develop a sense of X IBU is "alot" and Y IBU is not very much. You will look back at recipes you made and think, "That one was hoppy at 65 IBU, this on is 50 IBU, so it will be lower." or, "That one was 65 IBU and I want more, I will go with 80 IBU this time." If you use of them as a relative scale, not an absolute, you will get better results.If you have reliable clone recipes of beers you know, plug those into your calculator to get a reference.For me, the important thing is IBU:GU ratio. 40 IBU in a 1.045 OG beer is hoppier than 40 IBU in a 1.080 OG beer.

Also what do you make the cut-off point? Is it 6 IBUs, 10?

My point in my post was that despite brewing scientists trying to make hops and bittering beer a science, there is still plenty of art, black magic, experience, empirical knowledge and person preferences involved.When I drank my first SNPA I wasn't knocked out by the science or the IBU. I was knocked out by the combination and timing of the hops used. Their idea of a great beer matched my idea of a great beer. zymot

[chuck_d]

For me, the important thing is IBU:GU ratio. 40 IBU in a 1.045 OG beer is hoppier than 40 IBU in a 1.080 OG beer.

Yeah, I like looking BU:GU as well as BV. In my spreadsheet I calculate those on the fly and put it next to the style guideline's average BU:GU and BV.