22 replies to this topic

[Genesee Ted]

I know that this is a topic that has been debated in the past on many occasions, but I want to rehash the whole thing. It seems to me that even with our highly modified malt these days, there are still benefits to decoctions or at least step mashing. I do a whole lot of cooking food. How much and when you apply heat makes a big difference in food, so why would it not apply to beer.Some say that single infusions do the job just fine, but is it just me or is there an opportunity to improve upon the wort there? Do protein rests, acid rests, etc. just not even matter? All of the reading that I have done, albeit coming from older literature, seems to suggest that there are other benefits to multistep mashing than just Maillard reactions, although it is hard to argue with the flavor complexity that they add. I know that there are some of my fellow Bros out there that have some opinion or knowledge about this.

[positiveContact]

I know that this is a topic that has been debated in the past on many occasions, but I want to rehash the whole thing. It seems to me that even with our highly modified malt these days, there are still benefits to decoctions or at least step mashing. I do a whole lot of cooking food. How much and when you apply heat makes a big difference in food, so why would it not apply to beer.Some say that single infusions do the job just fine, but is it just me or is there an opportunity to improve upon the wort there? Do protein rests, acid rests, etc. just not even matter? All of the reading that I have done, albeit coming from older literature, seems to suggest that there are other benefits to multistep mashing than just Maillard reactions, although it is hard to argue with the flavor complexity that they add. I know that there are some of my fellow Bros out there that have some opinion or knowledge about this.

I've got nothing except single temp infusions under my belt but I've liked what I've created. It's hard to convince myself it's worth it to do a decoction or a multi-step mash b/c I have my process down to the point where things go pretty smoothly and I like the results. Sorry I can't contribute much more than that.

[denny]

I've proven to myself that the effects of decoction are so slight, if any at all, that there's no point in it. I generally fell the same about step mashes, but the last 5 batches I've done step mashes just to see if I can finally decide. Based on the results, I found no benefits from doing step mashes. While of course YMMV, I urge you to try side by side batches and do a blind triangle test to assess the results. That's really the only way to reach an objective decision. Don't let literature, or simply the fact that you think doing more work makes better beer, influence your decision.

Edited by denny, 10 February 2011 - 11:48 AM.

[Big Nake]

I know I posted this before, but there could be some good info. THIS conversation started out about Altbier but shifted towards a decoction lesson. There are some experienced brewers on our local board who are all over it. There is also more of this HERE. It occurs to me that the only real way to know for sure is to take a recipe that you make relatively often (as a single infusion) and make it using a decoction method and see if you can pick out any differences either way. I don't see a better way to tell which side of this topic you're on. It also occurs to me that there are only certain styles where a decoction may be relevant. A good Festbier, maybe a Weizen, an Altbier, a Dunkel... I don't know for sure but many styles fall outside of the world of decoction. That said, I tried one time and the beer came out badly but that could've been any number of reasons including compromised yeast slurry. Cheers.

[positiveContact]

I know I posted this before, but there could be some good info. THIS conversation started out about Altbier but shifted towards a decoction lesson. There are some experienced brewers on our local board who are all over it. There is also more of this HERE. It occurs to me that the only real way to know for sure is to take a recipe that you make relatively often (as a single infusion) and make it using a decoction method and see if you can pick out any differences either way. I don't see a better way to tell which side of this topic you're on. It also occurs to me that there are only certain styles where a decoction may be relevant. A good Festbier, maybe a Weizen, an Altbier, a Dunkel... I don't know for sure but many styles fall outside of the world of decoction. That said, I tried one time and the beer came out badly but that could've been any number of reasons including compromised yeast slurry. Cheers.

I think Denny (and Kenny!) speaks a lot of truth. The only way to really know is to do a blind taste test with the same recipe.

Edited by mashleyJwilliams, 10 February 2011 - 11:55 AM.

[Genesee Ted]

I've proven to myself that the effects of decoction are so slight, if any at all, that there's no point in it. I generally fell the same about step mashes, but the last 5 batches I've done step mashes just to see if I can finally decide. Based on the results, I found no benefits from doing step mashes. While of course YMMV, I urge you to try side by side batches and do a blind triangle test to assess the results. That's really the only way to reach an objective decision. Don't let literature, or simply the fact that you think doing more work makes better beer, influence your decision.

I am at this point less concerned about "is it worth it" than "does it do anything". As homebrewers I feel that we have the luxury of doing things that are less than practical, but "worth it" in that it works. Not that I am advocating the lengthening of my brewday by any means I am more or less trying to understand the brewing process better. If it works, it works. If it does increase the quality of beer, maybe it is worth it. Although, I could very easily go back on my ideological perspective if it is proven to be so minor as to be barely detectable.

I know I posted this before, but there could be some good info. THIS conversation started out about Altbier but shifted towards a decoction lesson. There are some experienced brewers on our local board who are all over it. There is also more of this HERE. It occurs to me that the only real way to know for sure is to take a recipe that you make relatively often (as a single infusion) and make it using a decoction method and see if you can pick out any differences either way. I don't see a better way to tell which side of this topic you're on. It also occurs to me that there are only certain styles where a decoction may be relevant. A good Festbier, maybe a Weizen, an Altbier, a Dunkel... I don't know for sure but many styles fall outside of the world of decoction. That said, I tried one time and the beer came out badly but that could've been any number of reasons including compromised yeast slurry. Cheers.

Thanks for the links! Perhaps I could do this as a Brews-Bros project. I have access to a virtually identical system to mine that I can use for experimentation. Perhaps we could put our heads together as far as recipes which test various elements of the supposed benefits or decoction or multistep mashing that I can try. If anyone is interested, I would be willing to share the bottled results with anyone willing to contribute.

[HVB]

Thanks for the links! Perhaps I could do this as a Brews-Bros project. I have access to a virtually identical system to mine that I can use for experimentation. Perhaps we could put our heads together as far as recipes which test various elements of the supposed benefits or decoction or multistep mashing that I can try. If anyone is interested, I would be willing to share the bottled results with anyone willing to contribute.

I am in for a tester I have not done a decotion to date. I have step mashed a couple of times but those were for Berliner Weise’s. I do plan to do a side by side of a lambic done the quick Brewing Classic Styles way and then one done with the full turbid mash to prove to myself that there is or is not a difference.

[WallyG3]

I could never get the malt character of my Pilsner beers right until I started including a protein rest. So I am a believer in protein rests for anything where the large majority of the grist is continental pilsner malt (I have been using BestMalz). On that note, I sometimes employ a decoction, but not for flavor. I decoct to reach the temperature rests as I mash in a cooler and don't want to do too many infusions to where the mash gets too thin and I don't have much more volume to use for sparging. I had this recently with a doppelbock - the mass of grain and water would have taken too much water to significantly raise the temp by infusion, so I decocted to reach the right temps.So in my opinion, step mashing and decoction are useful in the right situation. Not for many beers, but for certain ones, yes.

[Big Nake]

(I have been using BestMalz).

I've got 20 lbs of this stuff waiting for my next brewday! Can't wait to see how it comes out. Cheers.

[denny]

It occurs to me that the only real way to know for sure is to take a recipe that you make relatively often (as a single infusion) and make it using a decoction method and see if you can pick out any differences either way.

Ken, have you read the results of my decoction experiment? That's pretty much what we did. There were 5 different styles tested and blind tasting. If you haven't seen the results, start on pg. 25 here...https://www.ahaconfe...8/DennyConn.pdf

[denny]

I could never get the malt character of my Pilsner beers right until I started including a protein rest. So I am a believer in protein rests for anything where the large majority of the grist is continental pilsner malt (I have been using BestMalz).

I also use Best and for the last 5 brews I've been experimenting with step mashes and protein rests. My findings at this point are that neither made any difference to beer quality.

[denny]

I am at this point less concerned about "is it worth it" than "does it do anything".

I guess that's what I meant. It's not worth it because I couldn't tell that it did anything.

[Big Nake]

Ken, have you read the results of my decoction experiment? That's pretty much what we did. There were 5 different styles tested and blind tasting. If you haven't seen the results, start on pg. 25 here...https://www.ahaconfe...8/DennyConn.pdf

Hi Denny: Yeah, I have read that and I think it's a good experiment. If you had multiple batches brewed (with decoction vs. infusion) and had people blind-taste them, I would think that would be a great test. If you didn't want to go through that, simply making a recipe that you normally make with a single-infusion and doing a decoction could give you an idea of the difference. I suppose you could say that every batch that a homebrewer makes is slightly different (due to an ever-expanding array of brewing variables) and the decoction could just be another one of those variables. But I like the line in your document where it says the overall goal is to make a beer that drinkers prefer. That is absolutely the goal here. I like a lot of the beers that I think would benefit from decoction... Marzen, Oktober, Vienna, Alt, possibly a Czech Pilsner. I will eventually try another decoction just to see how it goes but it's not going to happen soon. Cheers.

[positiveContact]

Hi Denny: Yeah, I have read that and I think it's a good experiment. If you had multiple batches brewed (with decoction vs. infusion) and had people blind-taste them, I would think that would be a great test. If you didn't want to go through that, simply making a recipe that you normally make with a single-infusion and doing a decoction could give you an idea of the difference. I suppose you could say that every batch that a homebrewer makes is slightly different (due to an ever-expanding array of brewing variables) and the decoction could just be another one of those variables. But I like the line in your document where it says the overall goal is to make a beer that drinkers prefer. That is absolutely the goal here. I like a lot of the beers that I think would benefit from decoction... Marzen, Oktober, Vienna, Alt, possibly a Czech Pilsner. I will eventually try another decoction just to see how it goes but it's not going to happen soon. Cheers.

I have a maibock that I'm going to probably keg this weekend. no decoction. I've sampled a little bit of it in a 2L that was all cloudy and it tasted soooooo good.

[boo boo]

So how about using a percentage of melanoidin malt to boost malt flavour? It is supposed to enhance a brew the same (sic) as a decoction mash.

[denny]

So how about using a percentage of melanoidin malt to boost malt flavour? It is supposed to enhance a brew the same (sic) as a decoction mash.

That presupposes that a decoction actually does enhance the beer flavor.

[positiveContact]

That presupposes that a decoction actually does enhance the beer flavor.

true. I use 1/4lb of aromatic (pretty much the same thing) in my o'fest and I like it.

[Big Nake]

All of this is funny because there are so many different tastebuds and things to pick up in the beer. My water happens to be a little out of balance towards making maltier-tasting beers (a lopsided chloride-to-sulfate ratio?) and I am usually adding some amount of Munich or Vienna to my beers along with things like Aromatic and Melanoidin which can create richer, fuller flavors so a decoction is not really high on my priority list because many of my beers already have a deep flavor profile.

[positiveContact]

All of this is funny because there are so many different tastebuds and things to pick up in the beer. My water happens to be a little out of balance towards making maltier-tasting beers (a lopsided chloride-to-sulfate ratio?) and I am usually adding some amount of Munich or Vienna to my beers along with things like Aromatic and Melanoidin which can create richer, fuller flavors so a decoction is not really high on my priority list because many of my beers already have a deep flavor profile.

ken, you done a comparison on the melanoidin versus aromatic? I've only used aromatic.