21 replies to this topic

[DubbelEntendre]

A great beer is more than the sum of its partsRandy Mosher, Radical Brewing

I think that most of us here are capable in running the numbers, and calculating OGs and FGs, IBUs, SRM, etc. But what about the other side of recipe creation? For the most part this process isn't like making a dressing. You can't taste it at any given point and say, "This needs more of...". How do you take all of the ingredients we have at our disposal and turn it into something beautiful?

[DaBearSox]

I think that most of us here are capable in running the numbers, and calculating OGs and FGs, IBUs, SRM, etc. But what about the other side of recipe creation? For the most part this process isn't like making a dressing. You can't taste it at any given point and say, "This needs more of...". How do you take all of the ingredients we have at our disposal and turn it into something beautiful?

trial and error

[ColdAssHonky]

trial and error

+1

[DaBearSox]

i like to create things on my own...i do brew clones and book recipes from time to time...but I like to experiment with things I know work together and things I am not so sure of....it's never a bad thing, i still make something that will get me drunk and it will taste better than a BMC...thats how it's been done for thousands of years and thats why there are so many great craft brews out there todayEDIT: I also like to brew other people creations as well...like Ken's MLPA...but then put your own spin on it...that's the fun of this hobbyI think if you sit around and just brew Jamil recipes all the time you'll never learn anything

[MtnBrewer]

I think that most of us here are capable in running the numbers, and calculating OGs and FGs, IBUs, SRM, etc. But what about the other side of recipe creation? For the most part this process isn't like making a dressing. You can't taste it at any given point and say, "This needs more of...". How do you take all of the ingredients we have at our disposal and turn it into something beautiful?

Most people go about it exactly backwards. They take a bunch of ingredients, throw them together and then ask the question, "What will that taste like?" I think it's more productive to imagine what you want the beer to taste like and then choose the ingredients and process accordingly so that what you end up with hopefully tastes like you imagined it would.

[Winkydowbrewing]

i used to just wing it and sometimes it work, others it didnt. Now I find a few approaches to work. On recipes that i liked in the past i just tweak and tweak, sort of the trial and error process. If it is a new style all together I usually read a lot of other recipes that get good feedback and say "what do these have in common" and come up with a base recipe and then start tweaking from there. Im not a huge fan of trying to totally copy a recipe, namely because i dont want to have to come up with every ingredient if i dont have them on hand. I have definitely done the whole "throw tons of stuff in and hope its good" method, but realistically I could never figure out what flavor were contributed from what, so I avoid that now. I love doing single hop IPAs and that has definitely helped hone my palate to recognize certain hops. Anyway thats my approached, but you dont have to take my word for it (lavar burton).

[djinkc]

I've brewed enough since restarting that I think I have a pretty good grasp on how something will turn out. This is with respect to probably 15 - 20 styles or whatever that routinely end up here. Not every one that gets the grain bill decided while strike water heats up is a winner, but usually as of late it is pretty good. Maybe not BJCP guideline perfect but I brew what I feel like brewing. To put it in perspective I'm probably getting close to 200 batches since I renewed this hobby. When I decide to try something I'm not familiar with I'll try to read up and of course ask dumb questions...You have to try a lot of ingredients and keep notes on what went into each brew, then hopefully add some more notes after several tastings as the beer matures. I have a very hard time following a recipe exactly, both brewing and cooking. I guess some are more comfortable experimenting. Absolutely though, experience is a great teacher.

[ncbeerbrewer]

For me the whole aspect of recipe research, composition and then the brewing is what really excites me about this hobby/obsession of ours. I think as stated that experience really helps guide you and that when someone says oh that won't work maybe to someone else it will. There is a lot of fun in experimenting and yes it has created some amazing microbrews and amazing homebrews as well. When I decide to brew up a new beer I have not been one to brew the same recipe very often and I am not really much of a fan of clone beers never done a clone of one either. I take pride and and enjoy the feedback the best when I have created a recipe on my own and others enjoy and wanna drink more of it too. I like to research the style, see what bjcp suggests, then I go onto recipe sites, and here and look up the style and see what others have used hops grains yeast. I formulate my recipe with those guides and come up with a recipe that I like and shoot for a beer that I will drink and hopefully share lots of with others as well. Good Luck to everyone with your creations and thanks to all that have contributed feedback to mine as well.

[djinkc]

I guess what I was trying to say in my previous post is don't be scared or intimidated. If you have the slightest clue about what should go in a mash, it'll turn out to be beer. It might not be what you wanted to make but odds are it will be drinkable. Then it's up to you to take it from there.

[DubbelEntendre]

All good stuff here.I haven't hit the century mark yet, so I'm still a brewing infant. I like to look at the BJCP style guidelines and check out the formulations in Ray Daniels "Designing Great Beers". From there, trial and error takes over. I'm sure that there is no magic bullet, but I'm sure as I become more in touch with the flavors of the individual ingredients that the art of this pursuit will become easier. Just like playing guitar, after you learn the scales you can improvise over a song in that key. I'm just not patient. Also, I need to be more diligent about tasting notes. My process notes are progressing to a point that they are usable, but I'm going off memory from tastings. And, while I have a pretty good sensory memory, I'm consuming so many different beers to get my palette on as many different flavors as possible that at some point there is a break down from information overload. Perhaps a tasting notebook would be in order as well.

[Yeasty Boy]

The whole world of one-off homebrewing is somewhat separate from "the perfect pint of" X beer style. You can get to know your ingredients and come up with a good beer over and over, but you miss out when you don't then taste it and ask: "what would make it better?"I have honestly had maybe three beers that the first try was just what I wanted, and any subsequent changes were only from availability of ingredients or a basic grudge against doing the same thing twice. Usually I take my best stab and it takes at least two more tries to zero in.My crystals are US 30 and 80, caravienne and caramunich, Special B and cararoma. My darks are usually debittered black and UK roasted. My Munich and Pils both come from Castle, my pale is Crisp or Gleneagles MO. I use a little bit of Special Roast, Honey malt, Biscuit and Aromatic, etc., etc. I know what these things do and if my recipe will accept them they are easy starting points. When I go to make a Steam beer with a bunch of pils and US 2-row. Hops similarly, lots of Magnum, Hallertau, Saaz, Goldings, Target, Challenger, Centennial, Amarillo and Mt Hood. Yeast, there's about ten that I go back to over and over so again, easy starting point.So, I guess to answer the OP, you DON'T take all of the ingredients at your disposal. Get to know a big handful of them, and then start to play with minor adjustments. It's much better to know the traits of three Belgian yeasts at different OG's and ferm temps than to say you've brewed with every one of them.--If that's what you're into. Some of us like to throw something together, and do it enough that the bad offsets the good, and there's not a thing wrong with that!Cheers!

[Big Nake]

I've made 330 batches of beer and there is still a lot of ingredients I haven't tried. But I think the trial & error thing is big because you really need to taste things so you know how they'll be in a beer. It's hard to do that with yeast and hops (you can't just pop them in your mouth like you can with grains) so you have to brew with them. I agree with MTN that you need to envision the finished product and then determine how to get there. I have also spoken with a number of veteran brewers who continue to remind me that simple is often better. More base malt, less specialty grains. You don't have to add 8 oz of hops to 5 gallons of beer to make your point, etc. My homebrews are wimpy and simple, but I enjoy them immensely. I just drained a keg of my Mexican Vienna tonight and I thought I might shed a tear... it was that good. Cheers.

[Gumbo Leviathan]

trial and error

+1Ive been brewing for about 4 years. About 1 year in I mostly gave up on recipies I found (unless I am looking for something specific). I just throw together ingredients that I think will make whatever style I am after.I write everything I do down in a notebook. If it comes out good, I make note of it. If its bad I usually write some notes speculating why its bad.Well, bad is a relative term. I think I have only made a few "bad" beers. Usually when I totally miss my BU:GU ratio or something like that. I have come up with a few recipies that I think are stellar, and some that are just OK.

[denny]

Most people go about it exactly backwards. They take a bunch of ingredients, throw them together and then ask the question, "What will that taste like?" I think it's more productive to imagine what you want the beer to taste like and then choose the ingredients and process accordingly so that what you end up with hopefully tastes like you imagined it would.

Absolutely! I start formulating recipes by using my "taste imagination". I think about what I want the finished beer to taste like. Then I use my experience and knowledge of ingredients to formulate a first try at the recipe. Finally, I brew it repeatedly, making small changes each time, til what I have in my glass matches what I have in my mind.

[Gumbo Leviathan]

Absolutely! I start formulating recipes by using my "taste imagination". I think about what I want the finished beer to taste like. Then I use my experience and knowledge of ingredients to formulate a first try at the recipe. Finally, I brew it repeatedly, making small changes each time, til what I have in my glass matches what I have in my mind.

My attention span isnt that long. From the time I have my "taste imagination" to the time the finished beer hits my kegerator, I usually no longer have the desire to perfect whatever it was

[Big Nake]

My attention span isnt that long. From the time I have my "taste imagination" to the time the finished beer hits my kegerator, I usually no longer have the desire to perfect whatever it was

I agree that's an issue. By the time a beer is ready, I may have shifted my attention to something completely different. Or the weather may have changed and I want something else. It seems that the beer I'm most interested in trying is the one in primary... which of course is the one that is the furthest from my draft faucet.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I agree that's an issue. By the time a beer is ready, I may have shifted my attention to something completely different. Or the weather may have changed and I want something else. It seems that the beer I'm most interested in trying is the one in primary... which of course is the one that is the furthest from my draft faucet.

Yeup - unless I started making 2 gallon batches my turn around time wouldn't be fast enough to tweak and remember what the old beer was like...

[RommelMagic]

I guess what I was trying to say in my previous post is don't be scared or intimidated. If you have the slightest clue about what should go in a mash, it'll turn out to be beer. It might not be what you wanted to make but odds are it will be drinkable. Then it's up to you to take it from there.

This is kinda my thinking. I recently brewed a Belgian with something like 7 different grains just because I wanted to use them up. Sure, it might not be to style per se, but it is gooooood.

[Zulu]

Yeup - unless I started making 2 gallon batches my turn around time wouldn't be fast enough to tweak and remember what the old beer was like...

And that is what some of the experts have done...I read read and read some more when I started. I also asked far too many questions...LOLCrafting great beers became my bible on early recipes, but just reading other recipes and understanding why an ingredient is in a recipe eventually comes to you.By now I have a certain amount of experience to craft based on my knowledge of what the outcomes should / could be.From my second brew I was tweaking recipes in some fashion or other. As I love cooking and have never been scared to experiment I guess this has carried across into brewingBUT Brewing is more like baking than it is like cooking.... the results are a long time in coming and small steps can affect the final outcome more than you realise.Of course , and I am sure you have done this , taking a recipe and brewing it EXACTLY the same as the guy next door , will usually create two beers not 100% the same, there are just far too many variables on our systems , cooling devices and pitch rates that effect the final outcome. We do a club big brew every year and it is amazing how different the final beers are, from the exact same Grains and Yeast.Experience and knowledge are the keys to great recipe formulation, plus a pinch of luck, and 1/2 bottle of IPA for inspiration. I think our biggest challenge as homebrewers is to be able to eventually brew the same recipe over and over again and get similar or same results, that only comes through solid and repeatable technique and accurate record keeping.

[Zandelar]

Absolutely! I start formulating recipes by using my "taste imagination". I think about what I want the finished beer to taste like. Then I use my experience and knowledge of ingredients to formulate a first try at the recipe. Finally, I brew it repeatedly, making small changes each time, til what I have in my glass matches what I have in my mind.

I am another in this boat. I definitely formulate my beers backwards, or reverse engineer. I always picture what I want and then figure out what I need to do to get there. It works for me and I have had a great amount of success working out my beers this way.