23 replies to this topic

[Jimmy James]

In my continuing love affair with sour ales I am planning to brew some Kriek over the next few months. I will be driving through the central valley in CA in a couple weeks on a trip to/from NorCal, and plan to pick up some cherries on the way home. I also have a neighbor with an apricot tree that produces a shed-load of fruit every year and could even make a second brew with some of those if it seemed like a good idea. But for certain I want to do a proper Kriek with a lot of cherries. Anyone have any good recipes? I realize a lot of tart cherries would be in order. I am thinking at least 10 lbs for a 5-gallon brew. As far as process I would guess maybe ferment the base brew with a Belgian yeast strain, then rack onto the cherries and pitch a sour mix such as the Roselare blend, White Labs sour mix or perhaps something else more suitable? I was thinking just Pils and maybe some flaked maize in the grist for the base. Some of my concerns/questions are:- How to prep the cherries- How many cherries and any particular type?- Are any specialty malts appropriate in the base brew? - What bugs to pitch, what temp to leave it at on the fruit?- Would apricots be a bad idea for a different take on this?- How do you get head retention on these brews? Commercial Kriek I've had has a nice lacy head, maybe some protein comes from the cherries or carries over from the base?- How long does this take? In other words, how long should I plan on leaving it on the fruit to get it nice and sour and dry?Thanks for the input. I plan on getting a recipe/process together and getting this going in the next few weeks as cherries are coming into season here in CA.

[BuxomBrewster]

I don't know about beer, but Scott makes fruit meads all the time. Tart cherries work well, I think most of them pitted to remove tanins and then I don't know if he freezes them first or not. He freezes most fruits to break down the cell walls and make the juice more accessible. Apricots turn to mush and make it really cloudy.

[strangebrewer]

In my continuing love affair with sour ales I am planning to brew some Kriek over the next few months. I will be driving through the central valley in CA in a couple weeks on a trip to/from NorCal, and plan to pick up some cherries on the way home. I also have a neighbor with an apricot tree that produces a shed-load of fruit every year and could even make a second brew with some of those if it seemed like a good idea. But for certain I want to do a proper Kriek with a lot of cherries. Anyone have any good recipes? I realize a lot of tart cherries would be in order. I am thinking at least 10 lbs for a 5-gallon brew. As far as process I would guess maybe ferment the base brew with a Belgian yeast strain, then rack onto the cherries and pitch a sour mix such as the Roselare blend, White Labs sour mix or perhaps something else more suitable?

Sorry I didn't catch this sooner! Lots of questions there and you sure you know what you're getting into . If you want to really dig into sour beers then go out and purchase a copy of Wild Brews by Jeff Sparrow. I can share what I know from what I have done but he has all the nuts and bolts documented as well as you can for a sour beer.

I was thinking just Pils and maybe some flaked maize in the grist for the base. - Are any specialty malts appropriate in the base brew?

For a grist a traditional lambic is going to be 70% pilsner and 30% unmalted white wheat (can you say STICKY) and then a turbid mash. My current lambic is 55% pilsner, 9% Wheat Malt, 27% unmalted white wheat, and 9% Carared. Really I just sacrificed some of the Pilsner for others as I had lots of others around but left the unmalted wheat close to the original 30%.

- How to prep the cherries - How many cherries and any particular type?

Kriek as you know is lambic with cherries added during secondary. You rack a lambic to secondary after about a year. The standard fruit addition is usually around 2-2.5lbs of fruit per gallon with some pushing 3-5lbs per gallon. I don't know all the varaties out there but you definitely want a tart cherry vs sweet. As for the amount of time on the fruit I haven't done enough experimentation with this to say and quality of the fruit will play a huge role. The better the fruit the less time it may take to get what you want. Just like wine making you'll never make a great anything from lousy fruit so obsess over your fruit. To prep the cherries I would freeze them pit and all mostly for the purpose of helping to break down the cell walls than for sanitation. I asked about this at Cantillon and he said they do not remove the pits from their cherries.

- What bugs to pitch, what temp to leave it at on the fruit?

As for your choice of fermenting friends. A traditional lambic fermentation would say pitch all the bugs at the beginning with something along the lines of the WYeast and/or WL sour blend. You could try the Roselare blend but I don't know if it would give you as much sour character. All depends on what you are after. If you want a real sour beer then I'd go about collecting and cultring dregs from Cantillon. If you want less I'd look for bottles of Drie Fonteinen. I reccomend dregs of other brewerys than say the WL or WY blends as I've used those blends and they just haven't gotten sour enough for my liking or they lack the depth of the real lambics. Though maybe that is just my 6 (less making lambic) vs their 600 years of experience.

- Would apricots be a bad idea for a different take on this?

Nope, Case and point Cantillon makes an apricot lambic. I didn't try it so can't say anything more than it does in fact exist.

- How do you get head retention on these brews? Commercial Kriek I've had has a nice lacy head, maybe some protein comes from the cherries or carries over from the base?

High carbonation. Real lambics will be low in carbonation and have very little head retention. Not sure which commercial ones you're refering to but of most I've tried few had that nice thick lacy head like you get on say a trippel or dubbel.

- How long does this take? In other words, how long should I plan on leaving it on the fruit to get it nice and sour and dry?

If you want sour and dry you are looking at years. The schedule I am looking at is 1 year for the primary fermentation, and then probably a 2nd year between time on the fruit and general aging and melding of flavors. Hope that's some help without being to overwhelming. Good luck!

[shaggaroo]

Kriek can also be cherry with a base of Flanders Red. What I did is used Jamil's Flanders Red recipe. I pitched the Roselare blend and let it sit for about 6 months... after that time I added 5 lbs of Montmorency cherries, lightly frozen pits and all, mashed them up a little bit and added to the primary, pits and all... they've been sitting on the cherries for about 7 months now and its coming along nicely.HTH,Jeff

[Jimmy James]

Thanks Matt and Jeff. I knew I'd get some good input here! I appreciate especially the input on the grist and process and what's worked for you guys. Since it's cherry season right now in CA I was thinking I could ferment out something and then secondary with bugs on the fruit - I realize now this would be a pseudo-kriek as it really needs a year in primary before fruit. So I guess I'll be brewing two batches, one to go on the fruit I just picked up and one to go sit around for a year before getting fruit next spring. I'll see if I can find some of those bottles to culture dregs from. I was going to go the easy route and use the WLP sour blend. My experience with sours up to now was using the Roselare Blend and it did develop nice sourness but took some time at 70 degrees to get there. I am not in a rush here so I don't mind waiting. I went into B3's NorCal store today and was going to pick up Wild Brews but they were out. I know it's at my LHBS, so I'll just pick it up when I get back home. It was like being a kid turned loose in a candy store in the B3 warehouse, good thing we were shopping for my buddy who I am teaching to brew this weekend!

[CaptRon]

Thanks Matt and Jeff. I knew I'd get some good input here! I appreciate especially the input on the grist and process and what's worked for you guys. Since it's cherry season right now in CA I was thinking I could ferment out something and then secondary with bugs on the fruit - I realize now this would be a pseudo-kriek as it really needs a year in primary before fruit. So I guess I'll be brewing two batches, one to go on the fruit I just picked up and one to go sit around for a year before getting fruit next spring. I'll see if I can find some of those bottles to culture dregs from. I was going to go the easy route and use the WLP sour blend. My experience with sours up to now was using the Roselare Blend and it did develop nice sourness but took some time at 70 degrees to get there. I am not in a rush here so I don't mind waiting. I went into B3's NorCal store today and was going to pick up Wild Brews but they were out. I know it's at my LHBS, so I'll just pick it up when I get back home. It was like being a kid turned loose in a candy store in the B3 warehouse, good thing we were shopping for my buddy who I am teaching to brew this weekend!

Where in CA are you? Are you in the Bay Area somewhere? Im up near Santa Rosa

[Jimmy James]

Where in CA are you? Are you in the Bay Area somewhere? Im up near Santa Rosa

Hey badogg, I live in San Diego but am in the Walnut Creek/Pleasant Hill area this weekend. The couple of friends I am staying with are taking Monday off and we're heading up to Russian River and then the wine country for a bit. I just picked up a couple bombers of New Belgium's Kriek at the BevMo in Walnut Creek, going to try it later tonight with some stinky cheese.

[MAZ]

JJ - The Burgundian Babble Belt is another great board, and it's primary focus is Belgian ales. You'll find a lot of discussions on sour ales.

[cavman]

Nope, Case and point Cantillon makes an apricot lambic. I didn't try it so can't say anything more than it does in fact exist.

I've had the Fou' Foune which is Cantillon's Apricot Lambic on draft, it is an amazing beer. Obviously it won't have the same tartness as a Kriek will, so it depends what you are looking for. Hell brew a batch then split in secondary half going on tart cherries the other half on apricots.

[CaptRon]

Hey badogg, I live in San Diego but am in the Walnut Creek/Pleasant Hill area this weekend. The couple of friends I am staying with are taking Monday off and we're heading up to Russian River and then the wine country for a bit. I just picked up a couple bombers of New Belgium's Kriek at the BevMo in Walnut Creek, going to try it later tonight with some stinky cheese.

Russian River as in the actual River or the Brewery? I'd suggest the brewery, better people to hang out with there.

[Jimmy James]

Russian River as in the actual River or the Brewery? I'd suggest the brewery, better people to hang out with there.

Good catch - we are checking out the brewery/pub and hope to meet some of the people and perhaps more importantly the beers Cavman, I may just do what you suggest and split a batch and throw the apricots on one. I got a crap-load of cherries staring at me here, so at least 5 gallons of Kriekbier is in the plan and probably 5 of an apricot version. On a related note I tried the NB Kriek last night and split a 22oz with a buddy while we mashed his Saison. It was pretty interesting. It has a nice sourness including a little acetic character but not too much - similar to a Flanders Red but with some cherry flavor. Got me thinking about Shaggaroo's comments on using a Flanders Red type base. It seems to me the NB version has a similar profile to the last brew I made with the Roselare blend, only with cherries in there too. I was worried at 8% it would be a little too big for a sour beer, but it was darn good I think. The bottle indicates it was a blend including some older barrel aged beer. I think I'll go lighter on the base beer and alcohol with my homebrew kriek but I really enjoyed the NB "Lips of Faith" Dark Kriek.

[CaptRon]

Good catch - we are checking out the brewery/pub and hope to meet some of the people and perhaps more importantly the beers

Yeah, that is an awesome place. Gets really uncomfortably crowded on Friday and Saturday nights. My homebrew club had its february meeting at Russian Rivers new production facility. Got to hang out with Vinnie himself and they had the taps flowin for us. Make sure to try the Damnation 23, and Consecration. Even if it is just the tasters. The 23 is some amazing stuff.

[Jimmy James]

Here's my plan so far after all the great advice. This first Kriek will be a "rushed" one in that it will ferment out and bugs will go in simultaneously with the cherries in secondary, where it will sit. Once the cherries are expired I plan to rack to another carboy and age/sour it for as long as it takes, probably until next summer (how's that for rushed). If anyone has a major objection to that let me know! I am going for a light red kriekbier and plan to carbonate it since I like my beers with some good head. I realize the traditional kriek may not always be carbonated much, but when I've had them at beer bars locally they've been carbed to at least 2.5 volumes it seems and they have been awesome. Grist (for a 5.5-gallon batch)7 lbs Belgian Pale Malt4 lbs flaked wheat (unmalted)1 lb caravienneHops: still undecided. I don't have aged hops, so I am thinking just ~10 IBU of something like WillametteYeast: WLP 510 Bastogne AleBugs: WLP Sour Ale I BlendWhat I am shooting for is a very dry and sour Kriekbier, with some malt background and very little to no hop character. I want the color, aroma and flavor from the cherries but no sweetness. I have about 15 lbs of cherries that are mostly kind of tart which came from a friends tree and a roadside fruit-stand in NorCal. They are freezing right now. I plan to smash them up, throw into the secondary and rack on top of them, pits and all. Thanks everyone for the help so far. If anything looks wack with my recipe or process please chime in. I will also brew a second batch of the same or modified lambic base and just pitch the sour blend (maybe the cake from my secondary after the cherries look done) and age that for a year and put it on cherries next spring to more approximate the Kriek process.

[shaggaroo]

JJ, looks good to me... and I too always like beer with some good head

[Jimmy James]

Well, I got the base beer for this fermenting away like crazy. I brewed it as above with a 90-minute single infusion mash at 152 and my brew day went flawless with the single exception that I did not take an OG reading Next step will be to rack onto the cherries and pitch bugs this weekend after primary slows. The cherries are frozen now, they were nice and ripe before they went into the freezer, had to discard some that were nasty. Most of the rest were getting fairly soft. I think I will thaw them on the counter top then pound on the freezer bags they are in to kind of mash up. Then just dump into the carboy. Does that sound ok, or anyone have a tried and true process? I think I may start documenting this with some pics once I get to that point. I wonder if a pellicle will form and if I would leave the fruit in the carboy and wait for the pellicle to fall which could be a long time. I just am thinking ahead too much, knowing that the cherries are going to look downright nasty after a few weeks in there...Shag you wrote that yours has been on the fruit 7 months so that makes me feel better.

[shaggaroo]

JJ, yes it's been on the cherries over 7 months now, though I let the sour bugaboos do their thing before I added the cherries... and I did leave the pits and all in and I actually think the pits added maybe a woody-like flavor, rather reminiscent of faint oak though no oak has been used. Your process of letting the cherries thaw and pounding on them a bit sounds like a good plan to me.

[Jimmy James]

As promised, here are some pics of this thing in process.

1st up, the transfer about to happen - basically racking the "lambic" base onto the cherries. I put lambic in quotes because it hasn't got bugs yet nor stayed a year in the carboy, so it's really just the base. It's getting the bugs and cherries all at once, which is not true to the process used in Belgium but hey, this is homebrew and I got cherries now. That little vial on the counter is the "fermentation friends" as StrangeBrewer calls them



Next is a shot of the cherry "puree". Basically I let the cherries get nice and ripe in a paper bag for about a week. I took out the stems, except probably a few that got through. I then put them in freezer bags and froze for 1 week. Took them out, thawed on counter and then mushed up the cherries in the bags manually. That took a while, since the little guys are tough to pop sometimes and keep squirting around in the bag. You can't just pound the bag or you risk a major incident. At any rate, after getting them mashed up I put the whole mess into the carboy using a funnel, pushing them through the funnel with a knife when they got stuck. You can see the pits are in there, as well as a lot of juice that was released. This was about 15 lbs of cherries when they were fresh from the tree.



After racking the beer onto the cherries I pitched the White Labs Sour Ale blend. I put it in the shower and waited for the inevitable blowout of krausen since I ended up darn near the neck of the carboy. I had underestimated the volume the cherries would take up and also am greedy and didn't want to waste a lot of the base beer. I tried rocking the carboy to mix up the cherry juice but it just sat on the bottom.



Finally, 48 hours later (after 44 hours of rigorous fermentation) you can see that the cherry juice and pits are all mixed up by the fermentation. It's got a nice color, and plenty of pits floating up to the surface. After several airlock changes I am not sure if I'd go with a lower volume next time or a blow-off tube, or just deal with cleaning the airlock a bunch. At any rate, looks like the 5 gallon Kriek is now a 6 gallon batch thanks to the cherries contribution. Next time maybe I'll brew and sour a Lambic a year in advance and save 1 gallon for blending purposes and give the other 4 the cherry treatment.



I will post pics later if/when a pellicle forms.

[shaggaroo]

Looks awesome JJ.

[CaptRon]

Wow, I'm going to have to brew with some fruit. I think I want to make a Cherry wheat or Peach wheat or something. Should all fruit be frozen then thawed and then just put in to the carboy right after thawing? A buddy of mine said that he just puts fruit in to the boiling wort and that is good, but I kind of like the idea of doing it in secondary like you did here.

[Jimmy James]

badogg, I am no expert in brewing with fruit and am flying by the seat of my pants on this one. I will share that my only previous beer with fruit was a raspberry brown ale where I boiled the fruit. That beer was nasty (to me, the chix seemed to like it). I think boiling fruit, in addition to setting the pectin and making your beer very hazy, will also release tannin from the skin and seeds. The tannin is what I think bothered me about the raspberry beer, although it was a long time ago so it's hard to say. At least for now, I will probably limit my fruit to secondary. I like the idea of a peach wheat. That sounds pretty good. I'd probably let some peaches get nice and ripe and then rack onto them. Freezing for a while doesn't hurt. I think it may kill some of the bugs living on the fruit's skin, although there's a chance it doesn't kill them all since a lot of bugs will survive a deep freeze for a while. It also may make the fruit a little easier to break down.