24 replies to this topic

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I had never really looked into this style but it sounds like a perfect place to head instead of my yearly dunkelweizen. So what are the general guidelines?1/2 rye? should the remainder just be munich? should any caramel/crystal malts be used (caramunich, carawheat)? should anything like a carafa II/III or debittered black malt be used for color adjustment?should I be using something like hallertau for hops? I may use magnum for bittering since it will be pretty undetectable. would a FWH be appropriate here? would it make sense to use Saaz hops for extra spiceyness?I'll be using 3068 for yeast.

[dmtaylor]

A true roggenbier is essentially a hefeweizen made with half rye malt instead of half wheat malt. The remainder would be pilsner malt in most cases, with perhaps a touch of CaraMunich, but too much caramel malt would be inappropriate. You don't need to do any color adjustments, unless you are making more of a dunkel version, in which case you could try Carafa or otherwise-debittered black malt. Magnum, Hallertauer, or any other German hops would be appropriate, only as a bittering addition and not much, if any, added to the last few minutes of the boil. Saaz would also be fine, although personally I'd stick with Magnum or Hallertauer for the extra spice -- Saaz, to me, is more floral. First wort hopping (FWH), IMHO, is worthless. You can do it, nothing wrong with it, but there is no good reason for the FWH process to exist, as there are no discernible benefits, in my experience as well as that of others.

[djinkc]

........... First wort hopping (FWH), IMHO, is worthless. You can do it, nothing wrong with it, but there is no good reason for the FWH process to exist, as there are no discernible benefits, in my experience as well as that of others.

I make a lot of rye beers but have had Roggenbier only a few times. The best was judging in a comp. I'm still learning to enjoy what some of those yeasts throw. I have to respectably disagree with your opinion on FWH though. I use the technique a lot - sometimes as the only hop addition and sometimes with a variety of other addition schedules. IME you get something a bit different than post 61 minute additions. Some bitterness, definifinitely flavor and IMO aroma. And, I have had this opinion thrown back in my face a few times - but they didn't have any of my brews. From my perspective, if you do it, don't hold back and try a little bit - go for it big time. It's not going to suck, and you might be pleasantly surprised.

[Malzig]

I'm an FWH brewer, too. I probably use it in more beers than I don't. I think it would be fine in this beer if you want some hop flavor and a smooth bitterness.I also think that 1/2 Munich Malt would be great, especially since you want to make this in place of your usual Dunkleweizen.

[christo]

FWIW, here is one I brewed last year that turned out quite nicely. Tasting notes below. It was the worst brew day of my life, however, with a stuck sparge as well as my hose braid came off. More rice hulls.Brewer: Christo Beer: Roggenbier Style: Roggenbier Type: All grain Size: 5 gallons Color: 39 HCU (~18 SRM) Bitterness: 18 IBU OG: 1.052 FG: 1.012 Alcohol: 5.1% v/v (4.0% w/w) Grain: 5 lb. Rye malt2 lb. German Vienna2 lb. German Munich.5 lb. Belgian CaraMunich.5 lb. Chocolate Rye Mash: 70% efficiency 152F. Batch sparged. Aforementioned stuck sparge even with 1/2 lb of rice hulls. Boil: 70 minutes SG 1.043 6 gallons did not add IM this time as a cloudy beer style. Hops: .5 oz. Santiam (6.5% AA, 60 min.).5 oz. Santiam (6.5% AA, 15 min.) Yeast: WY3068 Hefeweizen - from hefe yeast cake Log: Primary at 64F for 10 days. Let raise to ambient around 75F for 10 days in secondary. Carbonation: medium low carbonation. Tasting: With 60% rye in this beer and all the problems on brew day, I didn't know what to expect. Wasn't really my favorite on the first draft, but as aged over a month's time, a nice "chocolate pumpernickel" flavor developed with just hints of hefe yeast banana and clove in the background. Was the favorite at my O'fest party this year, with 7 other kegs in attendance. We'll see how it does in a competition.Update: Scored 37.5 and got a 3rd place, so not bad for a tough beer. Notes were that rye notes were great, mainly needed some additional carbonation.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

FWIW, here is one I brewed last year that turned out quite nicely. Tasting notes below. It was the worst brew day of my life, however, with a stuck sparge as well as my hose braid came off. More rice hulls. Brewer: Christo Beer: Roggenbier Style: Roggenbier Type: All grain Size: 5 gallons Color: 39 HCU (~18 SRM) Bitterness: 18 IBU OG: 1.052 FG: 1.012 Alcohol: 5.1% v/v (4.0% w/w) Grain: 5 lb. Rye malt 2 lb. German Vienna 2 lb. German Munich .5 lb. Belgian CaraMunich .5 lb. Chocolate Rye Mash: 70% efficiency 152F. Batch sparged. Aforementioned stuck sparge even with 1/2 lb of rice hulls. Boil: 70 minutes SG 1.043 6 gallons did not add IM this time as a cloudy beer style. Hops: .5 oz. Santiam (6.5% AA, 60 min.) .5 oz. Santiam (6.5% AA, 15 min.) Yeast: WY3068 Hefeweizen - from hefe yeast cake Log: Primary at 64F for 10 days. Let raise to ambient around 75F for 10 days in secondary. Carbonation: medium low carbonation. Tasting: With 60% rye in this beer and all the problems on brew day, I didn't know what to expect. Wasn't really my favorite on the first draft, but as aged over a month's time, a nice "chocolate pumpernickel" flavor developed with just hints of hefe yeast banana and clove in the background. Was the favorite at my O'fest party this year, with 7 other kegs in attendance. We'll see how it does in a competition. Update: Scored 37.5 and got a 3rd place, so not bad for a tough beer. Notes were that rye notes were great, mainly needed some additional carbonation.

that's actually pretty close to what I was thinking for a grain bill. I'll likely use debittered black for any color adjustment I need.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

that's actually pretty close to what I was thinking for a grain bill. I'll likely use debittered black for any color adjustment I need.

would you guys reccommend mashing a little higher for a recipe like this? how much rice hulls should I be tossing in to fight the stuck sparge action?

[dmtaylor]

I would actually mash on the lower end. Rye provides a thickness/fullness/creaminess all its own, so it does not need to be mashed high at all. I'd shoot for 148-150 F for at least 60 minutes. That should do the trick.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I would actually mash on the lower end. Rye provides a thickness/fullness/creaminess all its own, so it does not need to be mashed high at all. I'd shoot for 148-150 F for at least 60 minutes. That should do the trick.

I wasn't sure about this. So no higher temp mash and/or carapils needed?

[Malzig]

that's actually pretty close to what I was thinking for a grain bill. I'll likely use debittered black for any color adjustment I need.

That sounds like a great grain bill to try grain conditioning on , since 50% Rye Malt is going to be mighty gummy.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

That sounds like a great grain bill to try grain conditioning on , since 50% Rye Malt is going to be mighty gummy.

roger that - I was thinking of trying that on my next batch actually (denny's rye IPA).

[christo]

Yes, it was very gummy. If I brew again, I'll at least have a pound of rice hulls next time, maybe 1.5 lbs. Temp question already answered - you want a final gravity of 1.010-1.014, so you don't want to high a mash temp.

[Malzig]

roger that - I was thinking of trying that on my next batch actually (denny's rye IPA).

Here's a write-up, if you want a reference. The one caution really is just not to over do it. Done with the right amount of water, the grain will mill normally and leave the most beautiful, fluffy hulls you've ever seen. Overdone, you will make paste with the grain dust, which can foul your mill. I over did it the first time I tried it and left material in the grooves of my rollers. If this happens to you, be sure to clean the roller right away, because it will turn to concrete. The trick to remember is that the grain should basically seem dry, since you're trying to just rehydrate the hulls slightly.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Here's a write-up, if you want a reference. The one caution really is just not to over do it. Done with the right amount of water, the grain will mill normally and leave the most beautiful, fluffy hulls you've ever seen. Overdone, you will make paste with the grain dust, which can foul your mill. I over did it the first time I tried it and left material in the grooves of my rollers. If this happens to you, be sure to clean the roller right away, because it will turn to concrete. The trick to remember is that the grain should basically seem dry, since you're trying to just rehydrate the hulls slightly.

hmmm - the only thing I don't like about this is that it will require adjusting my mill. I may not try this the first time around. it may take a really sticky mash to push me over the edge! I think we all need to experience it once

[Malzig]

hmmm - the only thing I don't like about this is that it will require adjusting my mill. I may not try this the first time around. it may take a really sticky mash to push me over the edge! I think we all need to experience it once

Why do you think you need to adjust your mill? A lot of people use this so that they CAN adjust their mill tighter to get better efficiency without worrying about a stuck mash, but it's not a requirement. Just run the grain through as you always do, you should get the same efficiency as usual but with better hulls and more effortless sparging. At least that has been my experience.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Why do you think you need to adjust your mill? A lot of people use this so that they CAN adjust their mill tighter to get better efficiency without worrying about a stuck mash, but it's not a requirement. Just run the grain through as you always do, you should get the same efficiency as usual but with better hulls and more effortless sparging. At least that has been my experience.

ah - the link you posted seemed to imply that a slight gap tightening would be required. maybe I just read it wrong...

[Malzig]

ah - the link you posted seemed to imply that a slight gap tightening would be required. maybe I just read it wrong...

I see. He said "Get the mill ready and set it fairly tight. After all, you conditioned the malt to be able to crush it tighter." But that's optional and only one reason you might try this. 50% Rye Malt might be another. But it was only a suggestion, so see how it goes without conditioning, first, then you might be motivated to try it the next time you have a similar grain bill.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

So I was thinking of putting about 1.5lbs of caramel malts in this. 3/4lb of caramunich and 3/4lb of carawheat. I actually put more of both of these in my dunkelweizen but I guess it's not quite appropriate here. What do you guys think would be about right?ETA: I don't have the recipe in front of me but I think currently the grain bill is something like this:6lbs rye4lbs munich0.75lbs caramunich0.75lbs carawheat2oz debittered blackI'm thinking of lowering the caramel additions a little.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I guess I'm looking for people's experiences with commercial examples since I've never had one

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

eh? so have the roggenbier you've guys had - have they been light or dark or what??? I was under the impression they were darker like a dunkel but now I'm not so sure...