12 replies to this topic

[beach]

Hey BB Community,While I don't have huge post numbers I have been, for the most part, lurking for the last 6 months or so. In April I took a new position as a Territory Sales Mgr after being unemployed for 18 months (during which time I went from Mr Beer to 10 gal-all grain). I took 3 months, or so, off brewing while I got re-accustomed to working as well as to driving 1500-1800 miles a week. Since I got back to brewing I've been doing a lot of upgrades to my system as well as going to kegging. The bar build is going now and I'm putting the finishing touches on a custom fining and carb tank. It's amazing how much cool shit you can do when you have a real job My territory is Indiana and the lower pennisula of Michigan so I often have the opportunity to stop at LHBS's as well as breweries. I was driving from one customer's shop to another today and my route took me right by Frankenmuth Brewing in Franknemuth, MI. As it turns out my timing was perfect and as soon as I walked in I knew they were mashing. There's nothing else that has that wonderful aroma IMO. I told the lady in the gift shop I was a home brewer and she went and got an Assistant Brewer and introduced me. We talked misc. brewing for about 15 minutes and then he grabbed to Brewmaster, Jeff Coon, and we talked for about a half an hour. It was extremely cool. I asked them numerous questions about mashing, fining and clarity in general, carbing, yeast management, ect.... By then I had also tasted a number of their beers and asked him a lot about their newest harvest beer. Locally grown barley as well as fresh/wet Cascade hops, both cones & pellets) from a new lower Michigan hop Co-Op. They were both very helpful, personable and interesting. This was the first time I've ever spoken with pro brewers and, of course, they started as home brewers.OK, hang with me, I'm almost to the big "jem" I picked-up. As I was putting my new growler in the cooler in my car I saw the home brew I had bottled for my overnight trip and I thought, WTF, what better time to get feedback on my beer than now? I grabbed a bottle, went right back into the brewery and asked Mr. Coons if he would mind tasting my beer and giving me feedback. I had brought my American Wheat/IPA with me (50/50 wheat/barley, a shitload of Amarillo throughout w/Simcoe, Cascade & Cennt's thrown in @ different times). Kind a cross between FFF Gumball Head & Lagunitas Little Sumpin' Sumpin' Ale. He sniffed, tasted, sniffed, asked about the grain bill (I said basically 50/50), "good beer", sniffed, asked about hop schedule, sniffed, yeast, ferm temp, "good beer", sniff, grain bill again, taste, sniff. I say, "ok, what are you finding?". "Dyacetyl" (sp?). Now I, by no means, have been sensory trained, but I have tasted it in beers before but did not get that from my beer at all and I told him that. Then he asked if there was any crystal in it. Yep, sure enough, a little CaraVienne for color.He says that crystal malt below and up to 60L contribute Dyacetyl-like aromas and flavors; especially aroma. I mentioned that I've been working on a robust porter recipe that I would like to include a pronounced caramel flavor. I told him that I was using Special B and Crystal 60. He said change the 60L to 120L or 155L to eliminate the possibility of "faux butter".My question to you guys is, has anyone heard this or been dinged in comps for *D* where the grist consisted of crystal 60 or lighter? Sorry for the long post, but today was really cool for me.Thanks,Beach

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I don't entire comps but in my extensive internet reading I have never heard of this.

[beach]

I've only entered a couple of club comps myself. He noted that the brewmaster from New Holland was by recently and sampled one of Franken'-Beers seasonals that had "a shitload of 60L for color" and the NH brewer said, after an initial sniff only, "dude, I can't drink this beer, it's loaded with Dyacetyl." After Coons told him he was smelling crystal, he tasted and got a very little caramel and no D.I have no clue, just relating the experience.Beach

[Rick]

I have never heard this before about these caramel malts, but Jamil Zainasheff and others have stated that some people perceive kettle caramelization as diacetyl, which maybe be a factor in this matter.

[BarelyBrews]

Never done a comp (yet),i do love 120 cl and special B in my Old man Stout.Sounds like a great time you had.

[tag]

I have never heard this before about these caramel malts, but Jamil Zainasheff and others have stated that some people perceive kettle caramelization as diacetyl, which maybe be a factor in this matter.

Yep, some judges confuse caramel flavors with diacetyl/butterscotch.

[djinkc]

Yep, some judges confuse caramel flavors with diacetyl/butterscotch.

If that's the case I'm glad I don't have this problem.Actually, I'm a bit skeptical about this.

[3rd party JKor]

I guess I could maybe see it with a 10-20L crystal, maybe even 40L, but I can't imagine getting faux buttery flavors from 60L

[cavman]

I guess I could maybe see it with a 10-20L crystal, maybe even 40L, but I can't imagine getting faux buttery flavors from 60L

I've used 40 a lot and I never get it it my beers.

[beach]

I guess I could maybe see it with a 10-20L crystal, maybe even 40L, but I can't imagine getting faux buttery flavors from 60L

The brewmaster there told me that D flavors run from butter to caramel. I have no idea, I'm a smoker & I have a hard time tasting shit when I have a mouthful. The crystal I have in the beer he tasted is 20L (Dingeman's Cara 20, their version of CaraVienne).Beach

[beach]

Never done a comp (yet),i do love 120 cl and special B in my Old man Stout.Sounds like a great time you had.

Hey Kegdude, It was a great time, thanks. I spend over half of my work time in Michigan (the fall colors are really rocking up there) and will be making my swing up to the upper LP the week after next. Maybe we could grab a beer at the Ecentric Cafe sometime?Beach

[BarelyBrews]

Hey Kegdude, It was a great time, thanks. I spend over half of my work time in Michigan (the fall colors are really rocking up there) and will be making my swing up to the upper LP the week after next. Maybe we could grab a beer at the Ecentric Cafe sometime?Beach

That would be cool.PM sent.

[stellarbrew]

I think that diacetyl is one of the most often misdiagnosed flavors/aromas in beers. I am very sensitive to it, yet on several occasions I have had other people call it out in beers where I found none. The first and only triple decoction I ever did was on a Bopils, and it was judged to have diacetyl. I was pretty sure they were misidentifying the decocted flavors as diacetyl.