24 replies to this topic

[Darin]

I understand the batch sparging method and think I might try it for my next brew session. However, my question is - When you batch sparge, are you supposed to add more grain to make up for a possible low extraction? I think it was in John Palmer's book where he said that batch sparging gave lower extraction rates. (?) Am I misunderstanding what he wrote?Thank you for your help.Darin

[Big Nake]

Hmm. When I run my recipes through a calculator, I set the efficiency level to 75%. When I was a newbie AG brewer, I used to check my efficiency and I was consistently in the high 70s to low 80s. I have never fly-sparged so I don't have a comparison, but I do not up my grain bill to make up for an assumed lower efficiency. That said, if I put a recipe together that says it will be 5.4% and I end up with a beer that's 5.2%, I really don't care as long as the beer is good... but that's just me. Cheers & good luck with it.

[davelew]

I understand the batch sparging method and think I might try it for my next brew session. However, my question is - When you batch sparge, are you supposed to add more grain to make up for a possible low extraction? I think it was in John Palmer's book where he said that batch sparging gave lower extraction rates. (?) Am I misunderstanding what he wrote?Thank you for your help.Darin

Batch sparging gives lower efficiency than a PERFECT fly sparge. If you, like most homebrewers, don't perform perfect fly sparges, you might actually see your efficiency increase when you switch to batch sparging.My advice: don't change your recipe, because you don't really know how batch sparging will perform on your system.

[BrewerGeorge]

The majority of published recipes are formulated for 75%. If it's a reputable source, the calculated efficiency should be listed in the beginning of the book or somewhere. If you can't find it, 75% is a safe guess. If you're batch sparging 75% is a good guess for what you'll get when you mash, so the two should be close in line. Short answer is not, don't add extra grain.

[Stout_fan]

All this efficiency depends upon your OG, unless you ALWAYS do the same grist ratio then boil the snot out of your wort like mountain does.My efficiencies-Samiclaus 1.120 OG- 45%RIS 1.100 OG 55%most ales 1.055 OG 75%milds 1.040 OG 85%yes, I batch sparge.and partigyle on RIS and the samiclaus.

[dmtaylor]

Palmer is full of it. For a while I was getting average efficiency of 90% with the Dennybrew batch sparge system. I actually dialed my mill DOWN (to crush LESS efficiently) because at such a high efficiency, the beer begins to taste watery. In other words, I actually WANT lower efficiency because it requires more grain to be used, which results in a more normal maltiness in your beer. Seems crazy, but my experience is telling me it is quite probably true, as my more recent brews with lower efficiency (more like 82%) taste more malty to me.

[MtnBrewer]

All this efficiency depends upon your OG, unless you ALWAYS do the same grist ratio then boil the snot out of your wort like mountain does.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Palmer is full of it. For a while I was getting average efficiency of 90% with the Dennybrew batch sparge system. I actually dialed my mill DOWN (to crush LESS efficiently) because at such a high efficiency, the beer begins to taste watery. In other words, I actually WANT lower efficiency because it requires more grain to be used, which results in a more normal maltiness in your beer. Seems crazy, but my experience is telling me it is quite probably true, as my more recent brews with lower efficiency (more like 82%) taste more malty to me.

kind of makes sense. getting flavor out the grain is pretty easy, getting sugar out is a little harder.ETA: I wonder if this is a good reason to do a partigyle?

[davelew]

kind of makes sense. getting flavor out the grain is pretty easy, getting sugar out is a little harder.ETA: I wonder if this is a good reason to do a partigyle?

I've never thought about it, but my best session beers have mostly been second runnings. There might be something to your idea.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I've never thought about it, but my best session beers have mostly been second runnings. There might be something to your idea.

I need to get a second burner and partigyle it up. I guess I'd also need another kettle

[MakeMeHoppy]

I think weather you fly or batch you eventually tune your recipes to your normal efficiency. As above, since you don't know your normal batch efficiency brew the recipe as is, keep good notes and over time adjust as needed.

[davelew]

I need to get a second burner and partigyle it up. I guess I'd also need another kettle

I partigyle with a single electric kettle. I just leave the grains in the mashtun (a Gott Cooler). They lose a couple degrees an hour, which means that and starting at mashout temps of 170, there are a lot of hours before anything starts spoiling the mash. After I drain the first batch into the fermenter, I boil the second batch. Boiling and chilling a second batch adds 90 minutes to the brewday, but that's not a big add-on for double the beer.

[djinkc]

I understand the batch sparging method and think I might try it for my next brew session. However, my question is - When you batch sparge, are you supposed to add more grain to make up for a possible low extraction? I think it was in John Palmer's book where he said that batch sparging gave lower extraction rates. (?) Am I misunderstanding what he wrote?Thank you for your help.Darin

If I remember correctly all he said was it's possible to get a higher extraction rate, but not guaranteed. I think on a homebrew level it's almost irrelevant. I get slightly better efficiency fly sparging but that's on my setup. I have no doubt there are batch spargers that meet or exceed what I achieve. Personally, I wouldn't alter your grainbill. My two cents.

[Recklessdeck]

A better plan would be to keep a little dry malt extract on hand...If you do experience lower efficiency (check your preboil gravity), you can add it in during the boil to make up for the lost gravity points.

[MtnBrewer]

Palmer is full of it. For a while I was getting average efficiency of 90% with the Dennybrew batch sparge system. I actually dialed my mill DOWN (to crush LESS efficiently) because at such a high efficiency, the beer begins to taste watery. In other words, I actually WANT lower efficiency because it requires more grain to be used, which results in a more normal maltiness in your beer. Seems crazy, but my experience is telling me it is quite probably true, as my more recent brews with lower efficiency (more like 82%) taste more malty to me.

I've been wondering about this for several years. I think it almost has to be true but I've seen no hard data to back it up. One time I tried to do a no-sparge beer to deliberately lower my efficiency and test this theory. However all sorts of things went wrong with that beer and the efficiency was even lower than I expected. But it just seems to me that flavor is extracted at a higher rate than sugar and so for a beer with a good malty backbone, too high of an efficiency could actually be counterproductive.

[MyaCullen]

I've been wondering about this for several years. I think it almost has to be true but I've seen no hard data to back it up. One time I tried to do a no-sparge beer to deliberately lower my efficiency and test this theory. However all sorts of things went wrong with that beer and the efficiency was even lower than I expected. But it just seems to me that flavor is extracted at a higher rate than sugar and so for a beer with a good malty backbone, too high of an efficiency could actually be counterproductive.

I did a 20 minute mash to try to test this myself, after reading on the boards that some micros were doing this to increase body and mouthfeel.That beer when compared to the same recipe with a 60 minute mash was noticeably heavier and slightly sweeter, it had a higher finishing gravity than the comparable beer, but I never repeated it, so N=1.It was batch sparged and efficiency remained the same for both beers 78% IIRC

[MtnBrewer]

I did a 20 minute mash to try to test this myself, after reading on the boards that some micros were doing this to increase body and mouthfeel.That beer when compared to the same recipe with a 60 minute mash was noticeably heavier and slightly sweeter, it had a higher finishing gravity than the comparable beer, but I never repeated it, so N=1.It was batch sparged and efficiency remained the same for both beers 78% IIRC

That's not the same thing. The 20 minute mash would affect the dextrin profile and thus the mouthfeel and probably FG. However I wouldn't expect efficiency to change. On the other hand, deliberately crushing coarser or doing the no-sparge would definitely affect efficiency and would require more malt to compensate. That shouldn't affect the FG but it should affect the maltiness.

[MyaCullen]

That's not the same thing. The 20 minute mash would affect the dextrin profile and thus the mouthfeel and probably FG. However I wouldn't expect efficiency to change. On the other hand, deliberately crushing coarser or doing the no-sparge would definitely affect efficiency and would require more malt to compensate. That shouldn't affect the FG but it should affect the maltiness.

sorry, I was only attempting to address the watery description dmtaylor describedback on the topic, I like the deliberate course crush idea to increase maltiness, without raising FG, sounds interesting

[zymot]

Sorry, you do not make clear that this is your first all grain batch, as in you have not done a fly sparge either. If you have successfully fly sparged, then I say formulate your recipe with a 75% efficiency.If this is your first all grain batch, I suggest you prepare for a poorer efficiency. On their first batch, it seems most people get in the 50%-65%. Just my impression from reading brewing forum for 6 years. (I know - I know. Some people got >75% on their very first batch)It is strongly suggested that you take a gravity reading before the boil. Then calculate what your OG will be at the end of the boil.If you are spot on with your OG, go forward withh the recipe.If your extraction efficiency is lower than you expected, you can do 1 of 2 things.1- Add DME/LME to bring you OG up to the recipe specs.2- Lower your hop additions to keep the recipe in balance. The finished beer won't be exactly as you planned. It will still be beer, it will still taste great and you will know you made a true all grain beer and you did not have to "cheat" by adding any LME/DME. (not that there is anything wrong with that)Enjoy the process and expect there will be a learning curve.

[denny]

That's not the same thing. The 20 minute mash would affect the dextrin profile and thus the mouthfeel and probably FG. However I wouldn't expect efficiency to change. On the other hand, deliberately crushing coarser or doing the no-sparge would definitely affect efficiency and would require more malt to compensate. That shouldn't affect the FG but it should affect the maltiness.

Actually, based on some tests I've been doing recently, I'd think the efficiency would be less. Probably not a lot less. After spending some time grokking Kai's work on conversion efficiency vs. extraction efficiency, I've been doing longer, thinner mashes and have seen an increase in efficiency that I think it due to that. But it's been so slight (maybe 2-4 points) that it could be attributable to something else.

Edited by denny, 22 August 2010 - 02:59 PM.