16 replies to this topic

[gnef]

I am fermenting my golden strong based on the Liquid Stupid recipe (only made a minor modification - palm sugar instead of clear candi sugar).I decided to add the honey during fermentation because I didn't want the OG to be too high for the yeast initially.Here is my problem: I am unsure of the best method of adding the honey, and there is already a good krausen on the fermenting beer, so I know I want to add the honey in a day or two.Here are what I think are my options:1. Just squeeze the honey on top of the krausen, let it sink into the fermenting liquid, and hope that it dissolves (will it dissolve?)2. Boil some water, let it cool down to around 100F, mix in honey to make a less viscous and less concentrated liquid to add to the fermenter.3. Siphon some of the fermenting liquid into a container, add honey, mix it in well, then add it back to the main fermentation.If you think there are more options, feel free to let me know!Easiest method for me would be number one obviously, I just pour the honey into the fermenter and be done with it.I am actually somewhat leaning towards number 3 right now. What I am thinking, is to purge a sanitized keg with CO2, rack about half a gallon of the fermenting liquid into it, add my honey, repressurize the keg, swirl it around to get it dissolved, then transfer from the keg back to the fermenter using that CO2 pressure. I think this would minimize any oxidation, and I wouldn't have to dilute the liquid any.Thoughts?

[drewseslu]

I say just pour it in. The yeasties will know what to do!

[MyaCullen]

I say warm it up enough to pour it in straight and the belgian fungi will do all the mixing you need for youyou may want to consider adding a little DAP to give the little guys a boost also

[realbeerguy]

I boil up some water , about 1 QT or so & dilute the honey, cool & add. No additional DAP needed. This is what I do when adding the sugar to a Saison.

[davelew]

1. Just squeeze the honey on top of the krausen, let it sink into the fermenting liquid, and hope that it dissolves (will it dissolve?)2. Boil some water, let it cool down to around 100F, mix in honey to make a less viscous and less concentrated liquid to add to the fermenter.3. Siphon some of the fermenting liquid into a container, add honey, mix it in well, then add it back to the main fermentation.

I've done #1 before without any problems. There is a lump of honey for a couple days, but the fermenting yeast cause enough current in the liquid that it dissolves in less than a week. If that doesn't work, you can always sanitize a long rod and stir it manually, but I've never found that to be necessary.

[lowendfrequency]

I'd do #2, but pasteurize it at 140 for a minute or two before cooling and pitching. While I can agree that a vigorous boil will scrub out your honey aroma, I'd argue that a few minutes at 140 would be an undetectable difference than pitching it straight. Sounds like you're already trying to be super careful, why take chances? Plus, this is a big funky beer and not a light honey kolsch. The honey is serving more to dry it out in this recipe rather than adding flavor dimensions. Get it sterile, get it dissolved and get it in there!

[gnef]

Haha. I am starting to feel like I am on The Price is Right. Thanks for everyone's input, I still need to weigh the different factors. I will probably make a decision tomorrow on what to do.

[MyaCullen]

Completely unnecessary.

+1heat it if needed to get it to flow, but no more than that

[davelew]

pasteurize it at 140 for a minute or two

Honey is sterile, it can actually be used as an antiseptic if not diluted.

[lowendfrequency]

Lies! Honey is absolutely not sterile. Diluted honey left in a sterile environment will ferment itself from the wild yeasts and bacterium that occur naturally in it. This is the reason you should never give honey to babies. Also the same reason that most vineyards don't allow apiaries on their premises; fear of contamination. Nearly all commercial meaderies pasteurize their honey to keep from introducing these wild yeasts into their controlled ferments and to increase the shelf life of their bottled product if not using sulfite. As an added benefit, by heating the honey the impurities will raise to the surface and form a scum which can be skimmed off leaving a higher quality final product. I can understand why many homebrewers claim this to be unnecessary. At this point in the ferment the beer's yeast will overpower any competing organisms. The natural occurring yeasts in honey aren't very alcohol tolerant either and probably won't stand a chance in a big beer like this. And hey, plenty have done it before and not had a problem... if it ain't broke don't fix it, right?Maybe I'm a bit anal about this, but none of those excuses cut it for me. If someone is asking me to break one of the cardinal rules of sanitizing and just dump something that I know contains foreign yeast into my beer, I'm going to question it. Homebrewing is one thing but in a commercial setting, just dumping things into your beer is generally frowned upon. I know that Dogfish Head pasteurizes their honey (Midas!) and so does Widmer. Why do homebrewers seem to go up in arms when it's suggested on the forums?

[davelew]

Lies! Honey is absolutely not sterile. Diluted honey left in a sterile environment will ferment itself from the wild yeasts and bacterium that occur naturally in it.

Honey is a really concentrated solution of some simple sugars. Sugars are extremely bio-active compounds, and there aren't many organisms that can survive the onslaught of such a concentrated sugar solution. In fact, the only microbe I know of which can survive on honey is botulism spores (living botulism will be killed, but the spores can survive). Since boiling won't kill botulism spores, I still don't see the point in boiling.

[MyaCullen]

heating honey also drives off the floral aromatics that are so characteristic of honey, if you wanna boil honey, you might as well just add corn sugar instead

[gnef]

Well, I took a nap (a bit too long, as I missed this month's brew club meeting tonight. D'oh!), and didn't feel like doing anything too difficult with the honey addition, so I just added it directly to the fermenter. I did it slowly, and spread it out, so hopefully there aren't huge clumps of honey down there. I did notice good undercurrents and movement of the fermenting liquid, so I am hopeful it will all dissolve eventually. I will just leave it there, and maybe agitate the fermenter for a week or two. I will know whether it dissolved once I transfer it from the fermenter into kegs, and I will know what to do for later batches. I plan on doing a dark strong this way with the candi syrup addition during fermentation now, depending on the results I get with this liquid stupid.

Edited by gnef, 11 July 2010 - 05:07 PM.

[gnef]

I checked back later last night, and the krausen had already come back up significantly, so I think that did the trick, and it is fermenting a bit more strongly now. At this point, I doubt I will even need to agitate, but I will check on a daily basis and see how it is progressing. Thanks for the input, everyone!

[lowendfrequency]

Calmer than your are.Just be glad you aren't shouting that post into the mead forum here. I might be a lot more argumentive there.I make mead all the time without pasteurizing (no-heat) the honey or fruit - and I do it without adding sulfites.Just because the "pros" do it, doesn't mean they are doing it right. Some states require it. Other "pros" are as blind as you are.

Just take it easy man. [/dude]If I shouted this stuff in the mead forum it would echo off the empty walls and be greeted by chirping crickets. I'll concede that doing something simply because the pros do it isn't reason enough alone to make it right, but I don't see how an amateur meadmaker saying "I do it all the time" is really any better of an argument. Pasteurizing honey has always been a point of contention and we aren't the first to have this discussion, but let's at least hash it out in a manner that is beneficial to the forums with useful information. You break out your books and references and I'll break out mine and we can do this proper or we can agree to disagree and move on. But I really don't think telling people their opinions are invalid or calling them blind helps anyone.

[davelew]

You break out your books and references and I'll break out mine and we can do this proper

DO you have a reference for there being viable wild yeast or bacteria in honey? The only microbe that I know which can survive on honey is the spores of Clostridium Butulinum, are there any others you know of?

[armagh]

Just take it easy man. [/dude]If I shouted this stuff in the mead forum it would echo off the empty walls and be greeted by chirping crickets. I'll concede that doing something simply because the pros do it isn't reason enough alone to make it right, but I don't see how an amateur meadmaker saying "I do it all the time" is really any better of an argument. Pasteurizing honey has always been a point of contention and we aren't the first to have this discussion, but let's at least hash it out in a manner that is beneficial to the forums with useful information. You break out your books and references and I'll break out mine and we can do this proper or we can agree to disagree and move on. But I really don't think telling people their opinions are invalid or calling them blind helps anyone.

I'd point you to Shramm's "The Complete Meadmaker." Section therein on why honey is a poor candidate for bacterial colonization. If needed I (or some one else) can summarize once I get home and get it in front of me.As far as the mead forum, it does seem unnaturally quiet, but a fair number of its denizens have hashed this stuff out over a period of years here and in other forums and have moved on.