5 replies to this topic

[BlKtRe]

We have a nice conversation going on at the LBG boards about ranching yeast blends, in particular the VSS 3191-PC Berliner Weisse Blend. We have a couple of farmers in our club and the question that is being discussed is how to culture the right amount of each strain. Were sure this blend is balanced a certain way. Anyone ever done this or have any ideas pertaining to this discussion?Culturing Blends

[gnef]

what they are thinking about makes sense to me. when you streak the mixture onto the agar, you should see two distinct types of colonies, and you should be able to identify the yeast relatively easily and the percent of both species. Once you do this, you can make separate slants and plates of the individual strains. You should be able to make starters separately for both. Now to the ratio of the yeast to the bugs, that will be more difficult, and it is compounded by the fact that both species don't replicate at the same rate under the same conditions.what one of the posters said would be a good trial, but I don't know if it is worth it for all of you. If you do separate starters, then blend together a small amount, then streak, you can see approximately what percent of each species you have in the blend. This will help you to dictate how much of each starter you mix for your final starter. This takes time and possibly multiple trials. You could always just stick with 50/50, and see what the end results seem like, as that would make things much easier to do.

[davelew]

We have a nice conversation going on at the LBG boards about ranching yeast blends, in particular the VSS 3191-PC Berliner Weisse Blend. We have a couple of farmers in our club and the question that is being discussed is how to culture the right amount of each strain. Were sure this blend is balanced a certain way. Anyone ever done this or have any ideas pertaining to this discussion?Culturing Blends

First, I have strong opinions on sour beers, and I think almost everyone but me does them wrong. There are many ways to make a good sour beer, but this is my opinion, stated in strong words because of my strong feelings on the subject:Mixing different microbes in a starter is dumb. You should culture the lacto and brett and saccharomyces separately, and then let brewers mix them as desired. Commercially, many sour beers are blended AFTER fermentation, with a batch dominated by lacto mixed with one dominated by brett mixed with a neutral beer. Mixing the strains in a starter just takes away control from the brewer (who knows what ingredients, gravity and fermentation temperature will be used) and gives that control to the yeast farmer, who has to make guesses about the intended beer. The yeast farmer can't possibly pick the right ratio of Lactobacillus to Saccharomyces, because he doesn't have enough information. One ratio would be right if fermented at 85dF (where Lacto will dominate) and another ratio would be correct if fermented at 65dF (where sac. will dominate). Similarly, one ratio would be right for an OG of 1.035 (which favors lacto) and another ratio would be right for an OG of 1.060 (which favors sac.).You can still make a decent beer with a blend of microbes, but I don't think you will have nearly as much control over the process, and it's mostly luck that will determine the taste and quality of the resulting beer.

[drewseslu]

While dave makes some valid points, I'll play the other side of coin here.Originally, all sour (and well, all) brews were pitched or inoculated with a blend. Each microorganism will become more active as the conditions become conducive for them to do so.Sacc first, then Brett, then Pedio, and lacto bringing it all home. Alcohol levels, temperature, residual sugar, time, pressure, temperature and the health of each player in game make a difference.For every sour/funkified brew I've done, I have always let the brewers' yeast, ale or lager, ferment out completely before pitching anything else. I have added just Brett at this point, or Brett, Pedio and Lacto all after the primary yeast's fermentation. All the results have been fantastic.Dave's method appears similar, but not identical to, Vinnie Cilurzo's, of Russian River, sour/funkification regimen.Whereas the method I've adopted for production of Flanders Red Ale at MBC (pitching brett, pedio and lacto that were stepped up together into a fully fermented ale into a wooden barrel, and then drawing some off for service and then refilling with fresh ale) more closely echos the techniques at New Belgium and Rodenbach, albeit with less blending and room for correction, but as long as the final beer is balanced and tasty, variations in releases are part of the fun.

[BlKtRe]

Thanks for the posts so far. It is really an interesting subject. Adding each bug at different times does seem like a sound idea. We have one member of our club doing that with a batch currently. We will be interested in how that works out vs a blend. I might add that Ive sampled a few Flanders Red's using the WY Flanders yeast that was used as a direct pitch and some that used a Sac. strain first. Results were fair for both ways. Altho it seems that some ranchers feel that when plating a blend, that no one strain will take over. Again, an interesting subject to say the least. There has been some more posts on our LBG thread the last few days that makes it even more interesting if you haven't been keeping up.

[Jimmy James]

Interesting discussion over there blktre. I don't know how effective plating out the blend and looking to see what grows will be in making a quantitative assessment. You'd have to plate onto a single media and find a media on which all those organisms will grow at the same rate - that's going to be tough. More likely you'd have to take a little bit of the blend and put it under a microscope and count cells to get an idea - and here'd you'd need to be able to differentiate the different bugs (the yeast will be obvious). I think the whole magic in these blends is that someone is growing them up separate and then adding the correct quantity of each to the vial or smack pack, so the homebrewer can just pitch it and get the flavor profile intended. So, what Dave said to an extent I agree with - culturing blends will be a hit or miss proposition. You'll get further I think following his advice to bias flavor one way or another using OG, ferm conditions and so forth. I have used the blends from Wyeast (Roselare) and White Labs (Sour Ale) with great success and find them both to be excellent.