19 replies to this topic

[Humperdink]

I've never made a belgian beer. I've been brewing for about 5 years now, but haven't really enjoyed belgians that much until recently, and even now it's mainly sours and saisons. With summer approaching, I'd like to try my hand at this style, but have some concerns given the fermentation regiment (which is why I'm wanting to brew them in the heat of summer), yeast and grain bills. I've heard and read some saison yeasts want to poop out early and leave the beer with a lot of residual sugars. Is there any specific yeast that does this or is it a rule over most all saison yeasts? Should I pitch around 70 F since I want to ramp the temp up but avoid fusels? If you would please, give me a quick run down of your preferences and procedures as this is a far cry from my usual brewing practices and techniques.

[ColdAssHonky]

I'm very interested in this topic as well since I've never made one, but have plans for this summer.

[CaptRon]

Well, I've never used a Saison yeast. I have used the Trappist yeast. From what I understand, a lot of people like to ferment with this yeast at pretty high temps (I want to say someone told me mid 80's but not 100% sure about that). I know that it is also desirable to pitch at a lower temp than your target temp to allow it to heat up as it gets going in fermentation. I believe this is a technique that Vinnie at RR Brewing uses IIRC.

[passlaku]

You might want to try to wade through the Jamil's Saison show. https://www.thebrewi...l-Show-09-10-07

[MtnBrewer]

Saisons are one of the more all-over-the-map styles. There's not much you can do that doesn't fit in the style. Some people like to spice theirs, others rely on the yeast and hops to provide spicyness. The grain bill can be really simple to complex. It's one Belgian style that you can make really hoppy too. Some people include other ingredients (fruits and whatnot). There are few rules.A basic grain bill would be something like 10-20% wheat, 5% Munich, Vienna or aromatic, 10% sugar and the rest pilsner malt. Hop to about 25 IBUs. I like to include some spicy late addition hops like Saaz or Tettnanger. Some American varieties work real well too, Santiam is particularly good. A lot of yeasts work well, 3522, 3711, 3463 and WLP565/3724 (Dupont) are all good. I'm not in the military so I don't know anything about a fermentation regiment but saisons can (and should) be fermented really warm. REALLY warm. Like in excess of 80°F. If you want to add spices, I've seen coriander, ginger, orange/lemon/grapefruit zest and star anise used. Obviously there's a lot of room for variation and experimentation within everything above so feel free to get creative.

[davelew]

I've never made a belgian beer. I've been brewing for about 5 years now, but haven't really enjoyed belgians that much until recently, and even now it's mainly sours and saisons. With summer approaching, I'd like to try my hand at this style, but have some concerns given the fermentation regiment (which is why I'm wanting to brew them in the heat of summer), yeast and grain bills. I've heard and read some saison yeasts want to poop out early and leave the beer with a lot of residual sugars. Is there any specific yeast that does this or is it a rule over most all saison yeasts? Should I pitch around 70 F since I want to ramp the temp up but avoid fusels? If you would please, give me a quick run down of your preferences and procedures as this is a far cry from my usual brewing practices and techniques.

All the Saison yeasts that I know of (WY3724 / WL565 / WL566) come from the DuPont brewery and are based on the same original strain. I've only used WY3724 and WL565, I've never used the new Saison II strain from White Labs, but they list that yeast as coming from teh same brewery as the other two. In my experience, this yeast doesn't poop out early. It slows down early, but then it keeps chugging and chugging seemingly forever. You might get down to a light film of foam on the beer and an airlock bubble every 20 seconds, and it will stay that way for two weeks. That's normal. I usually ferment it at 85 degrees. Don't worry about fusels with DuPont yeast, it doesn't throw off fusels as far as I can tell, and is actually a little bland when fermented in the 70s.

[Humperdink]

All the Saison yeasts that I know of (WY3724 / WL565 / WL566) come from the DuPont brewery and are based on the same original strain. I've only used WY3724 and WL565, I've never used the new Saison II strain from White Labs, but they list that yeast as coming from teh same brewery as the other two. In my experience, this yeast doesn't poop out early. It slows down early, but then it keeps chugging and chugging seemingly forever. You might get down to a light film of foam on the beer and an airlock bubble every 20 seconds, and it will stay that way for two weeks. That's normal. I usually ferment it at 85 degrees. Don't worry about fusels with DuPont yeast, it doesn't throw off fusels as far as I can tell, and is actually a little bland when fermented in the 70s.

Great information, thank you.

[lowendfrequency]

The key with high-temp fermenting for Saison is to ramp it up. You can't simply pitch at 85 degrees (well, you can but I don't recommend it). Pitch at normal temps (~65) and then ramp it up over a few days. Then be sure to hold it high for a good solid week or two. Saison strains need plenty of time to ferment dry. Other tips would be to mash long and low. 90 minutes at 147 is usually my target. Add the candi sugar (boiled down) to the primary fermenter as opposed to the boil for a little boost to your overworked yeast. I like to brew Saisons all summer and build them up as I go. I start with something weak in the spring when it's cool, then reuse the yeast to do a few more traditional Saisons once it warms up. Then I usually finish with something BIG as the summer is fading so it can age all fall and be prime for snifters in the winter.

[richt]

I think that the only strain you really need to be concerned about is the Dupont strain. That has a habit of stalling out early if you don't keep it hot. 3711 though will ferment super dry at lower temps. I did a 1.060ish saison with 82% Pilsner, 9% wheat and 9% Vienna that I pitched at 64 and let it rise to about 68. It went down to 1.004 in a week without sugar. Mash low is the key. The spice from the yeast plays very nice with the citrus from the Amarillo late in the boil.

[jayb151]

I agree with LowEnd. You want to pitch cool and let it just do it's own thing and eventually end up in the 80's. Also, you can consider adding plain table sugar as part of your fermentables. I would also recommend adding it after the bulk of fermentation has already happened. This will help add a dryness to the beer that I feel is very important. Lastly, you should check out Jamil's podcast, and you can check out his "Can You Brew It" show for Jolly Pumpkin's Bam Biere. The Sunday Session also interviewed a brewer a few weeks back about making a saison too, so give that a listen to.I'm about to brew up a saison too, first one since last year's Big Brew Day!

[MtnBrewer]

If you guys are interested in a dark saison, I have a great recipe. I posted it on Teh Verde long ago but it might not still be around. Who knows... Anyway, if anyone's interested, I'll try to remember to post it tonight. One unusual step in that one involves the use of dried cherries. You brown them in a pan (no oil of course) and add them to the boil. There is also some star anise late in the boil that works really well with the cherries.

[jayb151]

One unusual step in that one involves the use of dried cherries. You brown them in a pan (no oil of course) and add them to the boil. There is also some star anise late in the boil that works really well with the cherries.

...That...Sounds...Awesome!!!Do you also use dark grain to get color, or does it all come from the darkened cherries?

[MtnBrewer]

...That...Sounds...Awesome!!!Do you also use dark grain to get color, or does it all come from the darkened cherries?

No there's some dark grain but I don't remember exactly what. I'm sure there's some Special B but aside from that I just don't recall what it was.

[lowendfrequency]

If you guys are interested in a dark saison, I have a great recipe. I posted it on Teh Verde long ago but it might not still be around. Who knows... Anyway, if anyone's interested, I'll try to remember to post it tonight. One unusual step in that one involves the use of dried cherries. You brown them in a pan (no oil of course) and add them to the boil. There is also some star anise late in the boil that works really well with the cherries.

Dried cherries and star anise? You've got my attention I'd be interested in that recipe, for sure

[MtnBrewer]

Dark Saison

[mach5]

Time, time, time...3 months minimum!

[lowendfrequency]

Dark Saison

Thanks for this one. I see you've got the cherries going in to the boil at 15 minutes. Ever consider adding them to the secondary? Or possible add them and the honey to the primary after a few days? I've not used dried fruit before, only fresh and purees... is boiling required for flavor extraction or would it scrub some flavor out?

[MtnBrewer]

Thanks for this one. I see you've got the cherries going in to the boil at 15 minutes. Ever consider adding them to the secondary? Or possible add them and the honey to the primary after a few days? I've not used dried fruit before, only fresh and purees... is boiling required for flavor extraction or would it scrub some flavor out?

I think some sour cherries added to secondary would be great. I've never tried that with this beer but you should feel free to give it a shot. Like I said, experimentation is the name of the game with saisons. I think the boiling helps extract some of the flavor but also keeps it fairly subtle. The thing about this beer is that all the flavors are low key. If any one of them stood out, it would upset the balance somewhat. You have the cherries, dried fruit from the Special B, star anise, honey, spicy yeast and hops all just above the flavor threshold. There's a sort of complex interplay between all these flavors and I think that's what makes this particular beer so good.

[ChefLamont]

Time, time, time...3 months minimum!

This, this, this! Well I cant attest to 3 mo, but give it plenty of time. Especially if you use the white labs yeast. It will do its thing, but it needs time. It will go gang busters and then look like it has stopped. Dont rack it at that point like I did. ha

[ncbeerbrewer]

Dark Saison

Nice Recipe Mtn!! I might have to give this one a try. I brewed a Saison years ago but would like to get some additional summer brews going too. Thanks for sharing. Cheers!!