18 replies to this topic

[North]

I was sharing a bottle of wine with this hot chick. Was a cabernet and really good! So after that bottle was gone, I went in and grabbed a bottle of Cabernet that I made (Vinters Reserver). Aged about 7 months. Was like night and day. My wine was much sweeter but still had the cab taste to it. was good wine and may have been better if we started with that bottle. but my question is why the extreme differences? I know besides the obvious (I'm not a winemaker by day). Do I need to age it longer? Or get a different kit?

[strangebrewer]

Could be a number of things. Perceived sweetness can be caused by residual sugar, acid levels, and in some cases if it was aged in an oak with a high vanillin content. I've found that while the vanillin comes through on it's own it can also magnify sweetness. I'd guess 2 things. First if it was a Vintner Reserve then that is the inexpensive kit made by wineexpert. They are highly concentrated and don't have much varietal character. It definitely tastes like wine and you can probably figure out what kind of grape but it's not going to show real depth or many subtleties. Second, kits are formulated with an average acidity level. They are aiming for as wide a swath of the consumer market as possible where as commercial winerys tailor their wine to be unique and memorable. If you get some of the higher end kits that have more region or even winery specific juice vs concentrate you'll find they have a higher acidity and more varietal character.That said if you prefer a dryer wine then on your next kit, in addition to letting it ferment out completely, experiment with adding tartaric acid or red wine tannin. Both are commonly available at stores that stock wine kits.

[MtnBrewer]

I would add that fruity wines often get described as sweet. Cabernet is usually not a varietal with a lot of fruit character so if the first one was typical Cab (Lots of structure, oak and a tannic backbone) and yours was less tannic/more fruity, it could taste sweet by comparison even if it was bone dry.Also, the difference between the two is the quality of the fruit. Winemaking is mostly about finding good fruit and then not screwing it up. It's very likely that the grapes used for the commercial wine were far better than the ones in the kit.

[DigitalTaper]

Also, the difference between the two is the quality of the fruit. Winemaking is mostly about finding good fruit and then not screwing it up. It's very likely that the grapes used for the commercial wine were far better than the ones in the kit.

I agree with this statement 100%. There are guys in my club that make tons and tons of wine. I have yet to come across a traditional home made wine that made me say, "Yeah I'd pay $20-$50 for this in the store.". I've had a few interesting wines from them that were great such as dandelion and various other fruits, but nothing phenomenal coming from grapes. The wines vary from kits, trucked in juice and runnings from some of the Finger Lakes wineries. Even the wineries who will sell off juice, save the best bushels of grapes for production and pass off the undesirables to retail. If you're out west you probably have better opportunities to get quality *fresh* juice than you do in NY. This is one of the reasons why I've stayed away from traditional wine making. It's easy to make a "drinkable" product, but hard to make a mind blowing bottle. As homebrewers we are lucky enough to be able to obtain the same raw materials as the pros. I can order my malts from North Country just like the big boys and source the same hops. Try getting a hold of a bucket of juice from Screaming Eagle! Juice aside, aging in new and used oak and blending barrels into a final product adds another layer of difficulty.Don't get me wrong, I'm sure plenty of people out there are making incredible wine in their basements. But in the big picture I don't think anyone could argue *most* home wine makers can consistently make a product to rival the best commercial examples.

[MtnBrewer]

This is one of the reasons why I've stayed away from traditional wine making. It's easy to make a "drinkable" product, but hard to make a mind blowing bottle. As homebrewers we are lucky enough to be able to obtain the same raw materials as the pros. I can order my malts from North Country just like the big boys and source the same hops. Try getting a hold of a bucket of juice from Screaming Eagle! Juice aside, aging in new and used oak and blending barrels into a final product adds another layer of difficulty.

This is why I don't make wine. It always seemed to me that it's trivial to make fair-to-good wine but quite difficult to make really great wine because you have to have access to good fruit (or good juice, which is just as hard). Nobody's making homemade wine with Rutherford Bench grapes. Maybe that's not a fair statement and I'm hoping SB will try to prove me wrong on June 26th but that's always been my impression at least for certain varietals.

[strangebrewer]

This is why I don't make wine. It always seemed to me that it's trivial to make fair-to-good wine but quite difficult to make really great wine because you have to have access to good fruit (or good juice, which is just as hard). Nobody's making homemade wine with Rutherford Bench grapes. Maybe that's not a fair statement and I'm hoping SB will try to prove me wrong on June 26th but that's always been my impression at least for certain varietals.

Nothing like putting me on the spot or anything. As everybody has said the fruit is where you always start. You'll never make great wine from lousy fruit. However you can make lousy wine from great fruit. I'm still plying my skills with what I'd consider slightly above average fruit. All I have bottled right now is my first harvest from 2007. I think it came out pretty good while keeping in mind it was also my first attempt. I have higher expectations for my 2008 Cab and Zin. You'll have to come back next year to try that :cheers:I'd venture to guess that most people out there are not working with grapes though. You can get very good results from the kits but as I mentioned in my first reply sometimes you have to doctor them to your liking.

Did I miss an invite?

Haha, no you didn't miss anything as I haven't let the cat out of the bag just yet as to what's going on. Suppose I should come clean as to why I've been asking questions about 55 gallon fermenters in the beer forum and doing a lot of reading on large volume temperature control .

[MtnBrewer]

Haha, no you didn't miss anything as I haven't let the cat out of the bag just yet as to what's going on. Suppose I should come clean as to why I've been asking questions about 55 gallon fermenters in the beer forum and doing a lot of reading on large volume temperature control .

I sent him a PM to bring him up to speed. He's working that day but plans to try to stop by.

[North]

can anyone recommend a quality wine kit? i've seen some with grape skins but thats like $180

[strangebrewer]

can anyone recommend a quality wine kit? i've seen some with grape skins but thats like $180

I'm a fan of the RJ Spagnols brand of kits over the Wine Expert brand. They don't have as large a distribution but I think it's a better product. From there spend as much as you are willing. The larger the volume in the kit means the lower the amount of concentrate in the kit and the more pure varietal juice. This directly translates to a better kit. The ones that have the skins are even better as the skins will impart more of the tannins and acidic structure noted earlier.What kind of wines do you like?

[MtnBrewer]

can anyone recommend a quality wine kit? i've seen some with grape skins but thats like $180

$180 for two cases of wine seems like a pretty good deal to me if the wine's any good at all.

[ScottS]

If you're willing to drop some cash, the limited edition Winexpert Chardonnay kit from a couple years ago was literally the best Chardonnay I've ever had in my life. I've been meaning to win the lottery and try the rest of those kits, because I suspect they are as good as that one.

[lowendfrequency]

I have yet to encounter a wine made from concentrate that would ferment all the way down to 0% RS. Don't get too hung up on comparing your homemade wine to the professionals. There are too many factors that contribute to the final product that you have absolutely no control over. Take the grapes themselves for example. What was the soil type? Westward or eastward facing slope? Was it a dry year? Lots of sun? Was the crush performed during the day when it's hot or during the cool evenings? What was the moon cycle during the harvest (no joke!)? And that's just a small fraction of variables applied to a small fraction of the process. In kit wine, you have a small concentrated blend of who knows what and from which vineyard that is augmented with plenty of sugar. Nothing you can do about it but enjoy some inexpensive wine that you proudly made yourself. I'm not hating on kits by any means. I've made dozens of them in the past and really enjoyed the wine/experience. I'm just saying not to get too caught up with trying to recreate your favorite wine at home or keeping up with professional vintners.

[ScottS]

If you're willing to drop some cash, the limited edition Winexpert Chardonnay kit from a couple years ago was literally the best Chardonnay I've ever had in my life. I've been meaning to win the lottery and try the rest of those kits, because I suspect they are as good as that one.

Now I can't remember if it was called the Limited Edition or what. Some company does a very expensive (>$100) line of kits that are regional varietals that change every year. It was from that line.

[North]

I'm a fan of the RJ Spagnols brand of kits over the Wine Expert brand. They don't have as large a distribution but I think it's a better product. From there spend as much as you are willing. The larger the volume in the kit means the lower the amount of concentrate in the kit and the more pure varietal juice. This directly translates to a better kit. The ones that have the skins are even better as the skins will impart more of the tannins and acidic structure noted earlier.What kind of wines do you like?

i prefer cabs, malbec, or shyrah

[strangebrewer]

i prefer cabs, malbec, or shyrah

So you're a big red drinker. We can be friends . Well if you want a good upgrade then I'd look at the RJ Spagnols Cru Select or if you're feelin it the Cellar Classic line.I've made the the RJ Spagnols Cellcar Classic Super Tuscan and the Wine Expert Castellina Super Tuscan and compared them side by side. The RJ Spagnols kit killed the Wine Expert kit in that particular case. I've had the California Cab Sauv and Syrah (made by someone else) and thought they were both impressive for kits.If all you can find is Wine Expert (which would not surprise me) then the Selection Original kits or again if you're feeling it the Selection Estate Kits are the way to go. Of the Selection Original the only one I'd reccomend is the Luna Rosso if you're looking for a good step up. I've made the Chianti, Cab Sav, and Sauv Blanc. They were good but nothing that would approach commercial quality. In the Selection Estate kits I've made the Lodi Old vine zin, Marlborough Sauv Blanc, Castellina Super Tuscan, and Lodi Ranch 11 Cab. Of those the OVZ and Lodi Ranch cab were my favorites.

[japh]

I've been wanting to get in on my LHBS's fall grape buy, which is supposed to be pretty good grapes. Not quite there yet.

[strangebrewer]

I've been wanting to get in on my LHBS's fall grape buy, which is supposed to be pretty good grapes. Not quite there yet.

Do it! Making wine from grapes is a new learning curve and the only way to get good is to give it a shot. Grapes only show up once a year so you have to try your hand at it and take good notes so you can remember what worked and what didn't the following year.Particularly if you plan to make big reds its a labor of love and patience. No need to go buy a ton of grapes to learn. Get 100-200lbs for your first try if your hesitant. Scaling up is easy, all you need are bigger fermenters! Those prices look about right too.

[strangebrewer]

I've been wanting to get in on my LHBS's fall grape buy, which is supposed to be pretty good grapes. Not quite there yet.

Do it! Making wine from grapes is a new learning curve and the only way to get good is to give it a shot. Grapes only show up once a year so you have to try your hand at it and take good notes so you can remember what worked and what didn't the following year.Particularly if you plan to make big reds its a labor of love and patience. No need to go buy a ton of grapes to learn. Get 100-200lbs for your first try if your hesitant. Scaling up is easy, all you need are bigger fermenters! Those prices look about right too.

[japh]

Do it! Making wine from grapes is a new learning curve and the only way to get good is to give it a shot. Grapes only show up once a year so you have to try your hand at it and take good notes so you can remember what worked and what didn't the following year.Particularly if you plan to make big reds its a labor of love and patience. No need to go buy a ton of grapes to learn. Get 100-200lbs for your first try if your hesitant. Scaling up is easy, all you need are bigger fermenters! Those prices look about right too.

Sadly, the 4 varietals that they have aren't my favorite ones. This would also be my first venture into wine (instead of Mead or Beer), so I'm thinking I'll go the route of a kit first.