14 replies to this topic

[djinkc]

A couple weeks ago everything started pouring foamy. Don't know why but it took a while to check my serving pressure. Somehow my regulators drifted to about 14psi. Before I figured it out an Alt on tap was really tasting funky. I thought I had a lacto problem and was considering dumping it. Everything is good now that the CO2 level is better. So, why don't Belgians that are super carbed not have that carbonic acid bite? Seriously.

[Thirsty]

Did the ambient air temp near your co2 drift up then back down possibly? My garage temp is always fluctuating, and my regulator may go from 11-14, then back down again. I think CO2 bite dosnt last long. When I try a fresh keg sometimes I get it, but will mellow out in few days or so. Most Belgians that are supercarbed get that way from bottle conditioning anyhow, so will not carry the bite from the forced CO2.

[stangbat]

I'm guessing, based an a little Wikipedia reading, that given a little time the bite would eventually dissipate as different compounds in the beer react with and neutralize the carbonic acid. So I'm guessing this is why highly carbed Belgian beers don't have the "bite".Did I mention that this is a guess? Ask your son the chemist for some input. :DSo I say leave the alt highly carbed and age it for a while to see if the bite disappears.

Edited by stangbat, 05 April 2010 - 11:39 AM.

[pete maz]

Most Belgians that are supercarbed get that way from bottle conditioning anyhow, so will not carry the bite from the forced CO2.

I had not heard this before. So the carbonic acid bite is only found in force-carbed beers? Why would it not occur in bottle conditioned beers too?

[MtnBrewer]

I had not heard this before. So the carbonic acid bite is only found in force-carbed beers? Why would it not occur in bottle conditioned beers too?

I would assume that it's because the CO₂ is introduced into the beer slowly. It seems that it's only when you carb quickly that carbonic acid becomes a problem.

[Thirsty]

I had not heard this before. So the carbonic acid bite is only found in force-carbed beers? Why would it not occur in bottle conditioned beers too?

The source of the CO2. A couple of months ago, I was carbing some soda bottles, and decided to make some seltzer. A real noticable metallic flavor, that I have only slightly noticed before in very green kegs. This was much stronger, because it was just tap water. I thought at first it was the water, but then I tried spring water and distilled water, same flavor. So I think that bottled air may just have a certain staleness to it, where freshly produced CO2 in a closed environment will have none.I could really be FOS on this one, I am just going with the results from my water experiment, but it does make sense. I think?

[stangbat]

I would assume that it's because the CO₂ is introduced into the beer slowly. It seems that it's only when you carb quickly that carbonic acid becomes a problem.

This is what I was getting at. When you force carb quickly, you create a bunch of carbonic acid right away. This will eventually neutralize and dissipate as the beer ages. With natural carbing and bottle conditioning, the carbonic acid is slowly neutralized as it is produced.The "bite" probably does not dissipate in seltzer water because there is nothing in the water to neutralize it. So the acid stays put and the "bite" stays there.Not being a chemist, and hating the chemistry classes I had to take in school, I don't know what would neutralize the acid. But I'm sure there are a lot of compounds in beer that would do such a thing.

Edited by stangbat, 06 April 2010 - 11:22 AM.

[MtnBrewer]

The "bite" probably does not dissipate in seltzer water because there is nothing in the water to neutralize it. So the acid stays put and the "bite" stays there.

I'll buy that. It would also explain why American lagers tend to have more carbonic bite.

[Jimmy James]

Carbonic acid will reach equilibrium with dissolved CO2. It's not as if carbonic acid is removed from your beer - as long as there's dissolved CO2 there will be a small amount of H2CO3. In fact, if you force carb, in theory you'd have all dissolved CO2 and zero carbonic acid initially, and very little carbonic acid for some period of time while it slowly reaches equilibrium.In short, we're barking up the wrong tree. The "bite" is from something else I suspect. Or, it could be that as carbonic acid is developed and then reaches equilibrium with bicarbonate the bite mellows due to the carbonic acid <-> bicarbonate equilibrium that is struck and will act as a buffer.

[3rd party JKor]

Carbonic acid will reach equilibrium with dissolved CO2. It's not as if carbonic acid is removed from your beer - as long as there's dissolved CO2 there will be a small amount of H2CO3. In fact, if you force carb, in theory you'd have all dissolved CO2 and zero carbonic acid initially, and very little carbonic acid for some period of time while it slowly reaches equilibrium.In short, we're barking up the wrong tree. The "bite" is from something else I suspect. Or, it could be that as carbonic acid is developed and then reaches equilibrium with bicarbonate the bite mellows due to the carbonic acid <-> bicarbonate equilibrium that is struck and will act as a buffer.

This. The carbonic acid isn't going away as long as there is carbonation. Carbon dioxide exists in your beer as carbonic acid. No carbonic acid = no carbonation. I guess the bicarbonate equilibrium could come into play, but my sense is that equilibrium happens almost instantaneously and wouldn't be noticed as a reduction in bite over time.

[MtnBrewer]

This. The carbonic acid isn't going away as long as there is carbonation. Carbon dioxide exists in your beer as carbonic acid. No carbonic acid = no carbonation. I guess the bicarbonate equilibrium could come into play, but my sense is that equilibrium happens almost instantaneously and wouldn't be noticed as a reduction in bite over time.

So what's your explanation then for why the bite fades over time?

[siouxbrewer]

So what's your explanation then for why the bite fades over time?

Surface area of the larger bubbles? I mean, the bubbles are CO2, carbonic acid is relative to CO2 levels. As CO2 is dissolved into solution, you get finer bubbles = lower carbonic acid. I'm not a rocket surgeon, I'm just trying to figure this out

[3rd party JKor]

So what's your explanation then for why the bite fades over time?

I don't have an explanation.

[djinkc]

I don't have an explanation.

Well, so far I'm still scratching my head........

[stellarbrew]

Interesting discussion here. I'm curious because I personally have detected a sort of harshness in force carbed beers, which seems to subside over time. Not being a chemistry kind of guy, myself, I took a look at the always reliable ( ) Wikipedia. They talk about carbonic acid (H2CO3) existing in small amounts in equilibrium with CO2 dissolved in water. They further mention that this equilibrium is reached slowly. Question for the chemistry-knowledgeable guys here: is it possible that the time it takes to reach this equilibrium could be a reason for higher amounts of carbonic acid in solution earlier on, and thus the reason for this harshness, or carbonic bite? Again, I am not speaking as an authority here; just trying to understand what I have witnessed first hand.Edit: After reading again what Jimmy James said above, it looks like the carbonic acid increases over time, up until reaching equilbriium, rather than decreasing, so my guess is obviously wrong. Still, I can't ignore what my tastebuds tell me, regardless of the underlying reason.

Edited by stellarbrew, 11 April 2010 - 11:13 AM.