29 replies to this topic

[Stout_fan]

I heard Dan Gordon say the classic German technique was to pitch cold at 9°C and ferment to within one plato of the expected finish gravity. I'm Polish, but I figure Finnish ought to be good enough.Anyway, then xfer to secondary and complete lager at a higher temp eventually transfering to the bright tank.And Jamil said he has a start and pitch cold with a ramp technique to ale temps.Neither uses a diacetyl rest. I've tried searching for this info, but seem to have problem locating it.Any body tried this or have suggestions?Not a big lager type myself. I seem to keep forgetting this part since I only do one a year in the standard rest fashion.It's an O'fest with 2206 yeast (46 to 56°F range) presently in the lagering chamber at 50°F since Sat night.thanks guyz, I'd do a search, but the information is you-know-where.

[MtnBrewer]

I agree with pitching cold and because of this one must pitch a lot of yeast. I generally make about a 4 liter (~1 gallon) starter. I don't really agree with the advice to rack to secondary and finish at a higher temperature. What I do is let it get about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way to FG and then raise the temperature into the low 60's. For a yeast that needs a d-rest, this would be it but even for yeasts that don't throw a lot of diaceetyl, it helps the beer finish drier. I think that's important for most lagers.Some people slowly lower the temperature down to lagering (2-3 degrees/day) after the d-rest. I have done it and it seemed to improve the crispness of the lagers. But I've also heard a lot of people say that it makes no difference so I could have been imagining it.

[EWW]

FWIW, I was listening to an old basic brewing podcast (January 19, 2006) about a week ago that had John Palmer talking about lager techniques. He basically agreed with Mtn, but I learned/relearned a lot from that one.

[Lagerdemain]

I brew lagers nearly exclusively, and believe I make very good ones - as good as any of the commercial examples I've tasted. I pitch cold (around 45 degrees) and remain cold throughout fermentation. When ready for lagering (I don't secondary, and see no reason to), I transfer to cornies and immediately transfer to a 34 degree chest freezer for lagering. I've never tasted any diacetyl notes in my beer.

[Stout_fan]

... one must pitch a lot of yeast. I generally make about a 4 liter (~1 gallon) starter. ...

Yep, that's what I did.Thanks for the help guys, looks like I'm on the right track.I used to always do the lower temp after D rest routine. This time I'm doing it Dan's way just for an experimentation.

[MtnBrewer]

I planned to add this to my first post but forgot to.One thing to keep in mind is that often times brewing techniques used by breweries (classic German technique) don't translate all that well to a homebrew system. Higher pitch rates, larger batches, filtration, etc. all influence the final outcome. So just because something works on a commercial system doesn't mean that it will work on a homebrewer's system. Also German brewers are incredibly conservative and will continue to do things a certain way just because that's how they always have done them. I'm not trying to discourage you at all from experimentation. Just pointing out that it may not be optimal for your system.The only thing that really scares me about that process is transferring to secondary/lager before the beer is finished. I've never been a fan of removing the yeast before they've finished the job.

[Lagerdemain]

I planned to add this to my first post but forgot to.One thing to keep in mind is that often times brewing techniques used by breweries (classic German technique) don't translate all that well to a homebrew system. Higher pitch rates, larger batches, filtration, etc. all influence the final outcome. So just because something works on a commercial system doesn't mean that it will work on a homebrewer's system. Also German brewers are incredibly conservative and will continue to do things a certain way just because that's how they always have done them. I'm not trying to discourage you at all from experimentation. Just pointing out that it may not be optimal for your system.The only thing that really scares me about that process is transferring to secondary/lager before the beer is finished. I've never been a fan of removing the yeast before they've finished the job.

That's a great point. Also, commercial breweries have different (or, rather, more) objectives. Quality of the finished beer is important, of course, but it's not the only thing that matters to them - after all, a commercial enterprise is a business, and toward that end a commercial brewery cannot afford to have beer sitting in fermenting vessels any longer than absolutely necessary. What we might think of as a "shortcut" is for them an absolute necessity to keep the doors open - I think that's why you see, in many cases, a lot of alternative approaches to this all in the interest of increasing turnover and increasing output without having to invest in equipment to raise capacity. On the other hand, we as homebrewers have no such economic constraints (within reason). We, for the most part, can allow our beers to linger in fermentation and lagering vessels far longer than commercial brewers would ever consider.

[Brian72]

So what is a typical length of time for a commercial brewery to lager thier beer? I try to let mine sit for a month in the chest freezer minimum before serving.

[Lagerdemain]

So what is a typical length of time for a commercial brewery to lager thier beer? I try to let mine sit for a month in the chest freezer minimum before serving.

It varies, but many of them lager for half of that.

[Brian72]

It varies, but many of them lager for half of that.

That kinda answeres my querstion on how commercial breweries can crank out beers as fast as they do. Well, that and all the equipment at thier disposal...

[Lagerdemain]

That kinda answeres my querstion on how commercial breweries can crank out beers as fast as they do. Well, that and all the equipment at thier disposal...

It's really a different animal. This isn't a completely accurate analogy, but in some ways it's like comparing home cooked food with packaged food.

[ncbeerbrewer]

That is definitely another advantage we as homebrewers have with brewing our beers. We can lager as long as we want and aren't losing any $$$. When I ferment my lagers I chill down lower than ferment temp and let it warm up too. I think making an appropriate starter is critical to lager brewing success. Its worked well for me too.

[dagomike]

The fermenters are the most valuable real estate in a brewery. But also keep in mind the typical conical style fermenter is not nearly as efficient in conditioning than lagering tanks. Plus, it's not unusual for a fermenter to hold a number of "batches." So, not only can lager tanks speed to time to package, but to fill one fermenter, for example, could occupy an entire brewing shift. The joys of homebrewing is none of this is our concern.

Edited by dagomike, 27 March 2009 - 03:12 PM.

[Lagerdemain]

it's not unusual for a fermenter to hold a number of "batches." So, not only can lager tanks speed to time to package, but to fill one fermenter, for example, could occupy an entire brewing shift.

I noticed at Stone's brewery that their brewing capacity seemed tiny compared to the capacity of their fermenters - like it would take a dozen batches or more to fill one fermenter. I'm probably off a little bit, but that's the impression you get.

[dagomike]

I noticed at Stone's brewery that their brewing capacity seemed tiny compared to the capacity of their fermenters - like it would take a dozen batches or more to fill one fermenter. I'm probably off a little bit, but that's the impression you get.

Yeah, lots of reasons for that probably, but in this context, imagine if a brewery shift filled one of the big fermenters. Obviously if it's occupied for conditioning, no brewing that day. Cellarmaster is a fun job.

[VolFan]

Interesting. I've always fermented on the extreme lower end of the yeast, do a d-rest, slowly chill back down, then xfer to keg and lager.One thing about the d-rest is on occasions I will have another lager fermenting and not want to warm it up just to do a d-rest. I usually wait for the second beer to ferment then d-rest them both, but this has occupied my fermenters for an extra two weeks which I didn't like.

[boo boo]

Most lagers to my understanding don't need a diacetyl rest if let run to completion in the primary, if they were started cold, as less diacetly would initially be produced.

[Stout_fan]

... The only thing that really scares me about that process is transferring to secondary/lager before the beer is finished. I've never been a fan of removing the yeast before they've finished the job.

I've always done lagers this way. Rack off the yeast on the d-rest.What's in solution is enough to finish the job.Always has worked for me.And my pitch rate is high enough I think.I'll post the SG when I measure it tomorrow.I'm on my second glass of Bordeaux.

[Brian72]

I brew lagers nearly exclusively, and believe I make very good ones - as good as any of the commercial examples I've tasted. I pitch cold (around 45 degrees) and remain cold throughout fermentation. When ready for lagering (I don't secondary, and see no reason to), I transfer to cornies and immediately transfer to a 34 degree chest freezer for lagering. I've never tasted any diacetyl notes in my beer.

I'm going to echo what LD said. I took his advise and applied it to my own lagers and have never had a bad one yet.

[Stout_fan]

I've dropped the idea of secondary fermenting my ales. I just go two weeks on the yeast with no perceptible change in flavor.And lagers are colder so autolysis should be less of a problem.Besides, I'm one lazy SOB! :shock:OK one 4l starter, decanted, shaken and stirred: check!Wyeast 2206, It's an O fest Maerzen. 46 - 58 °F range, 73-77% attenuation.Had fun with promash today------------- so I'll bore you to tears tonight B)Pitched last Sun morning so I'm coming up on 7 days at 50°F.OG: 18 brix= 1.071 or 17.32PThat yeast is good for say 75% attn so in theory the final should be:FG(est): 9.6 brix - 1.018 or 4.54PThat's an .053 difference in SG.so.......2/3 of apparent attn would be 1.036 SG3/4 of apparent attn would be 11.60 brix - 1.031 - 7.8PDan Gordon's 1P above FG would be:10.2 brix - 1.022 for 5.5P -- - - -- FWIWMeasured today:12.2 brix 1.035 8.82PGuess I'm ready to start ramping it up.