17 replies to this topic

[HarvInSTL]

Ok, here is what I had a chance to sketch up this morning. I want to preface this by saying that I am not an electrician and I plan on having an electrician review my work before anything is turned on/plugged in or used.The Neutral Bus, 3 pole distribution block, SPST's, DPST's and SSR's will all be housed in a junction box. The pumps and kettles will plug into the control box via L6-30 (elements) and L5-15 (pumps) twist lock receptacles and plugs. These are not in the diagram, but will be soon.The control box will plug into the 14-50 receptacle via a 14-50 plug. And the 14-50 receptacle will be wired to the 50A GFCI breaker. I opted against separate breakers for the elements and 110 stuff because this will be connected less than 10 feet from my load center and the added cost didn't seem needed to save walking an extra 4 feet to kill power if needed. If anyone can provide a compelling argument against this I will more than consider it.So far everything has been purchased except the junction box and the GFCI breaker. Still holding out to find a decent deal on those.Thoughts?

Edited by HarvInSTL, 27 March 2009 - 09:53 AM.

[BrewerGeorge]

You're not tying ground and neutral together outside the main box are you?

[HarvInSTL]

I thought the neutral connection in the main panel can be connected to the the ground bus bar, just not in the sub panel where it has to be connected to a separate neutral bar right?

[BrewerGeorge]

I thought the neutral connection in the main panel can be connected to the the ground bus bar, just not in the sub panel where it has to be connected to a separate neutral bar right?

That's my understanding as well. So the stuff on the left is in the main panel? I thought the whole thing was describing a sub panel.

[pods8]

So, um... where are the propane tanks?

[stangbat]

As you know, I'm not an electrician either, but your diagram makes sense to me.I think I've mentioned this in the past, but I used a sub panel mainly to allow me to distribute the power once I got it to my rig. With my mobile setup I felt it made things easier. I could have done the same thing with busses, but a premade sub-panel with breakers was compact and easy. It also allowed me to have separate breakers for each element and for the 120v. I just feel better knowing that a breaker will trip at 15 or 30A vs. the 50A breaker at the load center. Yes, 15A will kill you just as dead as 50A so maybe it is just a false sense of security.

Edited by stangbat, 27 March 2009 - 12:06 PM.

[HarvInSTL]

That's my understanding as well. So the stuff on the left is in the main panel? I thought the whole thing was describing a sub panel.

Yes, the stuff on the left is in the main panel.The GFCI is in the main panel, which connects to a 50A 14-50 stove receptacle. The control box will house the 3 pole distribution block, SSR's, DPST's, SPST's. The control box will connect to the 14-50 receptacle with a 14-50P plug.Looking at the diagram again it looks like I am connecting the neutral bus in the main panel to the neutral connection in the 14-50R receptacle, which connects to the neutral bus in the control box via the 14-50P plug. Hmm...

[stangbat]

I thought the neutral connection in the main panel can be connected to the the ground bus bar, just not in the sub panel where it has to be connected to a separate neutral bar right?

Yes, neutral and ground have to be kept separate back to the load center. They are tied at that point. And with a GFCI breaker, neutral goes into the breaker and the breaker's pigtail then connects to the neutral bus. You may know this and understand it, but I figure I'd point it out nonetheless.Edit: Pic of what I'm talking about

Edited by stangbat, 27 March 2009 - 12:09 PM.

[HarvInSTL]

Yes, neutral and ground have to be kept separate back to the load center. They are tied at that point. And with a GFCI breaker, neutral goes into the breaker and the breaker's pigtail then connects to the neutral bus. You may know this and understand it, but I figure I'd point it out nonetheless.Edit: Pic of what I'm talking about

I thought I understood this, but maybe not. Back to more research. And as a side point, rather than running the ground into the distribution block. Would I be better off running the neutral into the distribution block in place of the ground?Some of my planning has come from this diagram here.

[stangbat]

A GFCI monitors the balance of the load either between the two hots for 240, or between a hot and neutral for 120. To be able to monitor the balance for 120v, the neutral must come back into the breaker. There is a white "pigtail" neutral wire attached to the breaker, this pigtail is connected to the neutral bus in the load center.Ground and neutral must be kept separate all the way to the load center. This is because any current over the ground will throw off the balance and trip the GFCI. Neutral and ground are most likely bonded together in your load center, which is fine and what you want.Your first diagram looks correct. It has neutral coming back to the breaker and then going to the neutral/ground bus in the load center. It also looks like you are keeping ground and neutral separate until they terminate at the load center.

Edited by stangbat, 27 March 2009 - 01:01 PM.

[VolFan]

What type of distribution block do you plan on using? The one I have in my control panel works well and have a small foot print. It bears mentioning, your control panel will get busy in a hurry, so pick one out and if space & budget permits, get a size bigger.Here is a shot of mine in the lower left hand corner. The mounting plate in the panel was an additional $8 and the grounding bar you see was bought separately also.

[stangbat]

It bears mentioning, your control panel will get busy in a hurry, so pick one out and if space & budget permits, get a size bigger.

Boy, that's the truth. The inside of my panel will frighten the unprepared and terrify children.

[HarvInSTL]

Eric,Thanks for the input. Your diagram is what I used the most when working on mine!Pete,I've got a Gould 3 pole block. Each pole has (1) 2/0 - #14 lug by (12) #10 - #14 lug. Not bad for $16!Here is the one I bought. I've been thinking 16x16x6, but I think I might try and find a 24x24x6/8 depending on the price. Now it appears that I need to try and track down some heatsinks for my SSR's. Just can't see to find any cheap ones.

[VolFan]

Nice price on the block. I never priced them for it was given to me. My CP is 10x10x6. Although it does house the 12 VDC power supply I have a separate box for the SSR's & disconnects. Maybe looking at mine and how much you plan on putting in yours will help you decide.I really love the idea my welding buddy came up with in regards to mounting the CP at an angle and on slides. It permits me to peak in the mash tun rather easily and it tucks away nicely when not in use.

[HarvInSTL]

I had someone else mention to me the following, and I was interested on anyone's elses take on his comment.

Next, you should add some down stream fusing to protect the wire gauge size and also the down stream componants.For instance; appropiate sized fuses for each of your pumps and sized fuses for your heating elements. Essentially to protect against a catastophic failure. (a heating element was to burn out and fuse to ground or a pump winding was to fail) This will also allow you to drop wire gauge sizes in each of the branch circuits.According to your diagram there is no branch fusing until the 50A breaker so the wire gauge size through out would be required to handle 50A before the jacket melts. That's some heavy gauge wire.

Thoughts?

[Kremer]

Yes, neutral and ground have to be kept separate back to the load center. They are tied at that point.

Actually the only place neutral and ground should meet is at the service entrance (main) panel, which is where they have to be bonded. If you've got a 240V subpanel/load center in the garage or something you need to have isolated neutrals and grounds in there and 4 wires back to the main panel.

[HarvInSTL]

Nice price on the block. I never priced them for it was given to me. My CP is 10x10x6. Although it does house the 12 VDC power supply I have a separate box for the SSR's & disconnects. Maybe looking at mine and how much you plan on putting in yours will help you decide.I really love the idea my welding buddy came up with in regards to mounting the CP at an angle and on slides. It permits me to peak in the mash tun rather easily and it tucks away nicely when not in use.

Well my 24x24x8 arrived last night. Holy mother of god. Just a tad too big, and too heavy. Weighs in at 45lbs! But it was a decent deal so I grabbed it just in case the 16x12x6 that I got for $20 isn't big enough.

I had someone else mention to me the following, and I was interested on anyone's elses take on his comment.Next, you should add some down stream fusing to protect the wire gauge size and also the down stream componants.For instance; appropiate sized fuses for each of your pumps and sized fuses for your heating elements. Essentially to protect against a catastophic failure. (a heating element was to burn out and fuse to ground or a pump winding was to fail) This will also allow you to drop wire gauge sizes in each of the branch circuits.According to your diagram there is no branch fusing until the 50A breaker so the wire gauge size through out would be required to handle 50A before the jacket melts. That's some heavy gauge wire.

Thoughts?

[stangbat]

I had someone else mention to me the following, and I was interested on anyone's elses take on his comment.

I agree. This is why my elements and 120v stuff have their own breaker. They will trip at 30A and 15A in case of some kind of failure of a component or the GFCI.

Actually the only place neutral and ground should meet is at the service entrance (main) panel, which is where they have to be bonded. If you've got a 240V subpanel/load center in the garage or something you need to have isolated neutrals and grounds in there and 4 wires back to the main panel.

That's what I'm saying. Load center = main service entrance panel. They are separate until you get back to this point.

Edited by stangbat, 02 April 2009 - 07:50 AM.