10 replies to this topic

[Meadmagick]

I Know that honey by itself is very nutrient deficient, so I have been doing my research to understand how much Fermaid K and DAP to use in Staggered Nutrient Additions. What I have come to as an average from everything out there is about 1 gram/gal of Fermaid K and 1-2 grams/gal of DAP and staggering this between 2 feeding, the second at 1/3 sugar depletion. Do I have this about right? ( I just noticed a section giving great details about this in the FAQ so I will cross reference with that.) I have also been told that I want to be careful not to use too much DAP as it can leave bad flavors if the yeast doesn't use it all. I usually make melomels instead of traditional meads, so my question comes here. How do I calculate how much YAN may be in fruits and adjust my Nutrient additions accordingly, or is it necessary to worry about this at all? Thanks for your feedback

[Wayne B]

I Know that honey by itself is very nutrient deficient, so I have been doing my research to understand how much Fermaid K and DAP to use in Staggered Nutrient Additions. What I have come to as an average from everything out there is about 1 gram/gal of Fermaid K and 1-2 grams/gal of DAP and staggering this between 2 feeding, the second at 1/3 sugar depletion. Do I have this about right? ( I just noticed a section giving great details about this in the FAQ so I will cross reference with that.) I have also been told that I want to be careful not to use too much DAP as it can leave bad flavors if the yeast doesn't use it all. I usually make melomels instead of traditional meads, so my question comes here. How do I calculate how much YAN may be in fruits and adjust my Nutrient additions accordingly, or is it necessary to worry about this at all? Thanks for your feedback

I have never found a good reference that specifies the YAN from different fruits, so I've defaulted to estimating a blanket 100 ppm for any non-grape crushed frut, and added Fermaid and DAP from there. It has worked for me both to combat stinky fermentations and to avoid any chemical salts aftertastes in my melomels, so lacking any quantitative other information, I can recommend you follow my "rule of thumb."Also remember, in any melomel only part of the total volume is from the fruit. You have to allow for the dilution of any YAN in there, by the volume of honey/water that you add to the mix.

Edited by Wayne B, 19 February 2010 - 11:14 AM.

[Meadmagick]

I have never found a good reference that specifies the YAN from different fruits, so I've defaulted to estimating a blanket 100 ppm for any non-grape crushed frut, and added Fermaid and DAP from there. It has worked for me both to combat stinky fermentations and to avoid any chemical salts aftertastes in my melomels, so lacking any quantitative other information, I can recommend you follow my "rule of thumb."Also remember, in any melomel only part of the total volume is from the fruit. You have to allow for the dilution of any YAN in there, by the volume of honey/water that you add to the mix.

I must admit that I am not connecting with the math in my head to figure out ppm. When you say "I've defaulted to estimating a blanket 100 ppm for any non-grape crushed frut, and added Fermaid and DAP from there" What is the equation/measurement you use at this point. I am just going off of a general 1 gram per gallon general for Fermaid and 1-2 gram per gallon for DAP. So, I don't know how to figure out ppm. Any further insight here would sure help me to dial this in and is appreciated. Thanks!

[Wayne B]

No problem. I always like to work in parts per million since that's the most relevant measurement to ensure you get enough nitrogen in your must. All you have to do is to remember that one gram of Fermaid-K contributes just about 25 ppm of YAN to one US gallon of must. I know some sources have claimed 36 ppm and I've used that number erroneously in the past, but I can confirm now that the correct number is 25 ppm. Likewise, 1 gram of DAP contributes about 50 ppm of YAN to a gallon of must.So say you start with 5 total gallons of must that by volume is half fruit (contributing 100 ppm), and half just honey and water. The nitrogen from the fruit is diluted by half when you mix it with the honey and water (since there is no nitrogen to speak of in most honey), so your must starts out with 50 ppm. Say that you want to get that up to 200 ppm. You then need to add an additional 150 ppm of YAN. SO, per gallon, if you were to add a total of 2 grams of Fermaid-K and 2 grams of DAP, you'd have the 50 you started out with, plus 2*25, plus 2*50, which equals a net of 200 ppm. Two grams per gallon of each nutrient for a 5 gallon batch translates into 2*5, or 10 grams of each.See how it works?BTW, for normal strength (I.E. starting SG somewhere between 1.080 and 1.100), I like to have 250 ppm YAN for low nitrogen demand yeasts. I multiply that number by 1.1 for medium demand yeasts and for high demand yeasts I like to give them at least 1.25 times that amount.

Edited by Wayne B, 20 February 2010 - 01:47 PM.

[Meadmagick]

Thanks, this break down was exactly what I was looking for. Another question in regards to easy equations. I have seen the spread sheet under FAQ to enter all your info in and then it figures things for you, but I tried to use it the other night and since I put my fruit into primary, I couldn't figure it out. Even after reading the instructions that go with it several times. So I am wondering if there is an easy general way to equate your recipe for a projected starting gravity. I did get a basic one once from a local brewer that went something like this, but I'm not sure how to best account for fruit when it is the whole fruit and not juice. target gravity points * number of gallons / 37 (an average for points for 1lb honey to 1 gal) = lbs of honey needed. Does this sound about right as a general? And if so, what would you do when there is whole fruit added to the mix?

[Wayne B]

Fruit is a big can o' worms as far as estimating net gravity is concerned. The big variable is the percentage by volume of fermentable sugars in the fruit, and every type of fruit has different amounts of sugar available when ripe. I've just gone to estimating the volumetric equivalent of the fruit that I'm adding, looking up the average percentage of sugar in the fruit that I'm using, and computing an equivalent starting gravity for the fruit part of the must by itself. Then you can use the ole' S1*V1 + S2*V2 = St*Vt equation to calculate an estimated total must volume and specific gravity.

[Meadmagick]

Then you can use the ole' S1*V1 + S2*V2 = St*Vt equation to calculate an estimated total must volume and specific gravity.

I'm sorry to be SUCH a newbie here, but I'm not understanding entirely what this equation means. Does S stand for Specific Gravity and V stand for volume used and if so, what does St and Vt stand for?

[Wayne B]

Yes, the S is specific gravity, V is volume, the 1 and 2 represent the two different volumes of liquid that you are mixing together and the "t" represents the new total volume (and the new net specific gravity) of the combined liquid.

[Meadmagick]

thanks, now I won't go off on random tangents of math equations and can focus on mea making!

[Meadmagick]

Then you can use the ole' S1*V1 + S2*V2 = St*Vt equation to calculate an estimated total must volume and specific gravity.

Well, I thought I understood, but as I try to work it out, I fall short.I'm going to use the example I am working with and see if you can help me figure where I am going wrong.I have 2 gallons(v1) apples at 1.045 (sg1) and I want to have an og of 1.100 so I need 1.055 (s2) from my honey and 3 gallons water (v2)What I think your equation meant was this, for (sg1 and v1) 45 x 2 = 90 for (sg2 and v2) 55 x 3 = 165 then if I am following this through 45+165= 210 (st) 2+3=5 (vt) then 210 x 5 = 1050 and this number doesn't make any sense to me at all in relation to a specific gravity, or how to determine my recipe. Where have I gone awry??? Thanks again!

[Wayne B]

First, let's define those quantities in terms of your quantities.You start with 2 gallons of the apple juice. So, S1 is 1.045 and V1 is 2.You want to end up with 5 gallons of must that has a net starting gravity of 1.100. So, St is 1.100 and Vt is 5.You know that you will add 3 gallons of your honey/water mixture, but you don't know what SG it should be yet. So, V2 = 3, and S2 is your unknown.S1*V1 + S2*V2 = St*Vt, or1.045*2 + S2*3 = 1.100*5, orS2*3 = 1.100*5 - 1,.045*2, orS2*3 = 5.500 - 2.090, orS2 = 3.410/3, orS2 = 1.137So you want to mix enough honey in your water to end up with a mixture that has a gravity of 1.137, and add 3 gallons of that mix to your juice.Does that help?

Edited by Wayne B, 26 February 2010 - 05:25 PM.