39 replies to this topic

[orudis]

Palmer:

The grist/water ratio is another factor influencing the performance of the mash. A thinner mash of >2 quarts of water per pound of grain dilutes the relative concentration of the enzymes, slowing the conversion, but ultimately leads to a more fermentable mash because the enzymes are not inhibited by a high concentration of sugars. A stiff mash of <1.25 quarts of water per pound is better for protein breakdown, and results in a faster overall starch conversion, but the resultant sugars are less fermentable and will result in a sweeter, maltier beer. A thicker mash is more gentle to the enzymes because of the lower heat capacity of grain compared to water. A thick mash is better for multirest mashes because the enzymes are not denatured as quickly by a rise in temperature.

I aim for 1.5 quarts/pound but round up or down to the nearest half gallon or so, depending. I really don't sweat the ratio as much as the initial temp.

[MtnBrewer]

I remember reading one time (i think on here) that a thinner mash means a sweeter beer in the end...

This is incorrect. A stiffer mash makes a less fermentable wort.Ken, I just keep my mash stiffness pretty much constant at around 1.25-1.5 qt./lb. Changing mash stiffness is not a good way to control wort fermentability. Much better to always use the same stiffness and control fermentability through mash temperature.

[davelew]

This is incorrect. A stiffer mash makes a less fermentable wort.

The effect of mash stiffness on attenuation depends on temperature. For a mash at 150F, the peak fermentability is around 1.3 or 1.4 qts/lb, and a thinner OR a thicker mash will decrease fermentability. For different temperatures of mash, there's a different thickness for optimum attenuation.Chemically, barley tends to have a ton of alpha amylase (AA) and a more restricted amount of beta amylase (BA), so BA is usually the limiting factor in terms of creating simple sugars to increase fermentability. BA is denatured more quickly in hotter mashes (the half-life of BA is shorter at higher temperatures), but BA can also be inhibited by too much sugar, and can be slowed down by sugar concentrations that are too low. At each temperature, there's an optimal concentration of sugar for the BA; more sugar and the BA will be damaged by the high concentrations, less sugar and the BA won't have a chance to react with enough starch molecules before being denatured.

______0.7 qt/lb_____1.2 qt/lb_____1.7 qt/lb140F____73.3%_______76.1%_______76.2%150F____67.4%_______71.2%_______69.7%155F____64.4%_______65.0%_______65.3%

[zymot]

This is incorrect. A stiffer mash makes a less fermentable wort.Ken, I just keep my mash stiffness pretty much constant at around 1.25-1.5 qt./lb. Changing mash stiffness is not a good way to control wort fermentability. Much better to always use the same stiffness and control fermentability through mash temperature.

______0.7 qt/lb_____1.2 qt/lb_____1.7 qt/lb140F____73.3%_______76.1%_______76.2%150F____67.4%_______71.2%_______69.7%155F____64.4%_______65.0%_______65.3%

Looks like the chart backs up mtnbrewer's opinion.When you go left to right in mash stiffness, you get a narrow range of percentage. Example: 150F is 67.4% min to 69.7% max.Go up and down the chart, in temp results in a greater range. Example: At 1.2 qts/lb is 65.0% min to 76.1% max.Unless you do a mash out and stop conversion, your wort is going to continue to change until you reach the equivelant of mash out in your boil kettle. (this is why I like carapils)zymot

[davelew]

Looks like the chart backs up mtnbrewer's opinion.

Most of the chart backs up mtnbrewer's opinion, but for a 150F mash and a thickness of 1.7 qt/lb, going stiffer to 1.2 qt/lb will increase fermentability instead of decreasing it.As mtnbrewer said, changing mash stiffness is not a good way to change fermentability. Even though most of the time you get less fermentabiltiy in a thicker mash, there are too many exceptions to use that as a rule.

[3rd party JKor]

The data here suggests that mash thickness doesn't have an effect on the fermentability of the wort, but does affect efficiency.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I've been shooting for 1.25qt/gal. The problem if I were to up this amount is that my sparge would sometimes be on the small side. I average in the mid 70s for efficiency.

[Stout_fan]

JK, You beat me to referring to Kai's work.I can only presume y'all are talking about fly sparging here.Apologies if I missed the reference.But in batch sparging, efficiency is the ratio between sparges.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

JK, You beat me to referring to Kai's work.I can only presume y'all are talking about fly sparging here.Apologies if I missed the reference.But in batch sparging, efficiency is the ratio between sparges.

awesome link and chart - thanks!

[Big Nake]

You know what I'd like to see? A chart that shows a typical single-infusion mash for each style and what the optimum water-to-grain ratio would be along with the optimum mash temp. So... you have a 1.060 pale ale? Go 151° for 60 minutes with 1.33 qts/lb of grain. Or... an American Standard Lager at 1.048? Go with 150° with 1.25 qts/lb. That's probably too much to ask due to other variables. But I had 2 different people tell me 2 different times (about 2 different beers) that they were sweet. I realize this may not have anything to do with mash and it could be attenuation from the yeast, etc. So I guess I'm looking for a clue about making the most fermentable wort I can and then making sure that the yeast does its part during primary. I have a lager going right now and it's almost done. I moved it to a warmer spot to see if it would finish up... although a hydro reading shows it's pretty much there. Thanks for all the responses gang.

[Stout_fan]

Ken, it changes a bit from system to system, that 150°F temp is a bit high. But if you're going for high fermentable beers mashing at 147°F will give you a drier finish. When I was down in NOLA, the brewer at Gordon Biersch said that was their mash temp. Lighter, mouthfeel and a semi dry finish.Classic German brewing.

[Big Nake]

Ken, it changes a bit from system to system, that 150°F temp is a bit high. But if you're going for high fermentable beers mashing at 147°F will give you a drier finish. When I was down in NOLA, the brewer at Gordon Biersch said that was their mash temp. Lighter, mouthfeel and a semi dry finish.Classic German brewing.

Interesting. This Altbier that I kegged recently was mashed at 148° and I think it's a better beer because of the lower mash temp. I don't know if this would be suitable for a wide range of styles, but I seem to like it better & the body of this beer doesn't seem to suffer at all. I plan to brew tomorrow (a Mexican Amber Lager) and maybe I'll go with 147-148° on that one too. Cheers.

[davelew]

I'm looking for a clue about making the most fermentable wort I can and then making sure that the yeast does its part during primary.

If your beers are too sweet, cut down on the crystal malt, mash in the high 140s, pitch a metric ton of yeast, add more bittering hops, and control the fermentation temperature.Once you have tried all of those, changing your mash thickness from somewhere in the 1.0 to 1.5 qt/lb might be worthwhile, but there are a lot of other variables that are more important than mash thickness.

[denny]

In addition to going to a thinner mash, I've also lowered all my mash times a couple degrees and gone to 90 min. (instead of 60 min.) mashes.

[MakeMeHoppy]

In addition to going to a thinner mash, I've also lowered all my mash times a couple degrees and gone to 90 min. (instead of 60 min.) mashes.

Not trying to threadjack, but I have an observation/questionLast week I brewed my house IPA. I am very consistent with the mash time of 60 min and SG of 1.056 and FG of 1.016. I had an accidental 2 hour mash last weekend and got a SG of 1.062. I have another 10 days before I rack and check the FG and am interested if I get more attenuation. If my efficiency increase with mash time does that mean I need to crush finer. I realize longer should give me a more fermentable wort, but once conversion completes isn't my SG basically set?

[Stout_fan]

... but once conversion completes isn't my SG basically set?

What is in solution is converted. Not all the starches and sugars come out in a quick mash. Some are still in the grain in the process of dissolution.

[djinkc]

..........If my efficiency increase with mash time does that mean I need to crush finer. ...........

Maybe. I crush finer than most (.025 gap) and seem to notice no change in efficiency when I cut the mash short. Probably the shortest I've gone is 30 min plus a short mashout. What that did to my attenuation - don't know.

[Big Nake]

So here's what I did yesterday... a 5-gallon batch with about 10½ pounds of grain... 5 lbs of Vienna, 4 lbs of Munich, some 120°L and a small amount of debittered black (this was a Mexican Amber Lager). I mashed around 148° and the mash consistency was a little thicker than normal. I ended up thinning it out a little with some cool water to get the temp right. With all of that Munich and Vienna in there, I could see the resulting beer being sweet if the mash temp was higher. I would have ordinarily mashed a beer like this around 150-151° so I'm interested to see what the lower mash temp does. This doesn't really address the thin/thick aspect other than to say that this was mashed with 3 gallons (or just a bit more) and it was pretty thick. Should I have used a little more water for a mash like this?

[MakeMeHoppy]

What is in solution is converted. Not all the starches and sugars come out in a quick mash. Some are still in the grain in the process of dissolution.

Would you consider 60 minutes a quick mash? I'm going to see if I can schedule a 2 hours mash on my next brewday to see if I get the increased efficiency again. If I do I'll consider closing the gap a little on my barley crusher. I now return you to the thin/thick mash discussion..... thanks

[Stout_fan]

If you're crushing to powder like DJ says, conversion would be shorter.We need to do an experiment on mash times vs. tun gravity.And then do it on several different degrees of crush.Personally, I do a two step crush. One of these days I'll actually measure the gap.The first gets me husks and the kernels mostly broken in half.The second gets me husks and pretty much flower.I have to cut my mash, 'cause when I vorlaf the silt that builds up on top of the mash really restricts flow.Actually, it puddles. I thought it was a stuck mask but IronKite figured it out.And this is from a guy who cut the mash before he knew what cutting the mash is.I guess it helps to brew with people that are smarter than you.