20 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

Does anybody use it on a regular basis? Where did you find it (it appears to be hard to find & out of stock on some supplier sites)? Do you consider it cheating? Stupid question, I know, but I have tasted a number of dark beers that seem to have little or no dark roastiness. Is it a hideous crime against humanity to make a beer that looks like a Dark American Lager but tastes like a light lager? Should something along the lines of a Vienna or Altbier use Simamar to darken the beer without making it coffee-like? I just made an Indio clone this week (this is a dark lager brewed my Cuauhtemoc Moctezuma in Mexico, brewers of Dos Equis, Sol, Tecate, etc.) and used an ounce or 2 of debittered black malt and I could already tell that this small amount will produce a much bigger roasty profile than this commercial beer has. I was talking with another brewer who says that Denny likes to use Sinamar here and there... Denny? True? As another example, I made a Vienna with almost all Vienna malt and no specialty grains and it's extremely light in color, which seems out of the ordinary for me. I would think it would be darker... and maybe it would be if I did a decoction or something. Thoughts?

[Humperdink]

Does anybody use it on a regular basis? Where did you find it (it appears to be hard to find & out of stock on some supplier sites)? Do you consider it cheating? Stupid question, I know, but I have tasted a number of dark beers that seem to have little or no dark roastiness. Is it a hideous crime against humanity to make a beer that looks like a Dark American Lager but tastes like a light lager? Should something along the lines of a Vienna or Altbier use Simamar to darken the beer without making it coffee-like? I just made an Indio clone this week (this is a dark lager brewed my Cuauhtemoc Moctezuma in Mexico, brewers of Dos Equis, Sol, Tecate, etc.) and used an ounce or 2 of debittered black malt and I could already tell that this small amount will produce a much bigger roasty profile than this commercial beer has. I was talking with another brewer who says that Denny likes to use Sinamar here and there... Denny? True? As another example, I made a Vienna with almost all Vienna malt and no specialty grains and it's extremely light in color, which seems out of the ordinary for me. I would think it would be darker... and maybe it would be if I did a decoction or something. Thoughts?

Regular basis? No. I found mine at Northern Brewer, and heck no I don't consider it cheating! It's extract from a grain so it's RHGBT approved. I used it in a shcwartzbier and I liked it. I also used it in a "blacked out blonde". No roasty notes and great color. I would say use it in anything you want color but not flavor from roast grains. I still have some that I'll use when my color doesn't seem right in the kettle.

[Big Nake]

Well, I know it's a natural grain product, but it seems weird to add just color for the sake of color. Not that I'm against it necessarily. But I envision someone making a light lager and then spiking it with Sinamar... you'd SEE dark but you would TASTE light... sort of like your blacked out blonde. And this beer I had in Mexico was very probably made with it because it had way more color than the flavor would suggest. I also saw that many online references to Sinamar also mentioned how good it was in a Schwartzbier. I just found some online from a place in Shawnee, KS called Bacchus & Barley or something along those lines.

[Humperdink]

Well, I know it's a natural grain product, but it seems weird to add just color for the sake of color. Not that I'm against it necessarily. But I envision someone making a light lager and then spiking it with Sinamar... you'd SEE dark but you would TASTE light. And this ber I had in Mexico was very probably made with it because it had way more color than the flavor would suggest. I also saw that many online references to Sinamar also mentioned how good it was in a Schwartzbier. I just found some online from a place in Shawnee, KS called Bacchus & Barley or something along those lines.

Something about a RED beer makes me want to drink. Like your home run red. Every time I see that thing I want to consume. For me color does have its psychological value. Which was also why I made the blacked out blonde/uncle tom beer. To show people one thing but have them experience another. It was interesting to see the lightbulb go on. To me, an association with color has it's place but I liked showing folks something isn't always what its seems.ETA: One of the reasons I recommended the sinamer in your thread was the way you described the beer, it just seemed to fit what I think of this product.

[Big Nake]

Something about a RED beer makes me want to drink. Like your home run red. Every time I see that thing I want to consume. For me color does have its psychological value. Which was also why I made the blacked out blonde/uncle tom beer. To show people one thing but have them experience another. It was interesting to see the lightbulb go on. To me, an association with color has it's place but I liked showing folks something isn't always what its seems.ETA: One of the reasons I recommended the sinamer in your thread was the way you described the beer, it just seemed to fit what I think of this product.

Right, I'll go along with all of that. I guess I thought that this debittered black malt was one way to do this, but just one ounce in my mash made my kitchen smell like a coffee-house, so I know this beer will have some roastiness, but I will keep my fingers crossed. I may try to make another version of it when the Sinamar arrives. I also read that 4 oz of the stuff (which is pretty expensive!) adds 16 SRM in color to 5 gallons. So how much did you add to your blonde to make it "blacked out"? Cheers.

[Humperdink]

Right, I'll go along with all of that. I guess I thought that this debittered black malt was one way to do this, but just one ounce in my mash made my kitchen smell like a coffee-house, so I know this beer will have some roastiness, but I will keep my fingers crossed. I may try to make another version of it when the Sinamar arrives. I also read that 4 oz of the stuff (which is pretty expensive!) adds 16 SRM in color to 5 gallons. So how much did you add to your blonde to make it "blacked out"? Cheers.

She drank about two gallons :unsure:Bout half the bottle I guess, I added some, nope not enough, added more til it looked like a stout in the kettle. ETA: in a ten gallon batch.

Edited by chriscose, 28 January 2010 - 01:12 PM.

[Joe]

No more 'cheating' than using gelatin to make beer clear.

[Big Nake]

No more 'cheating' than using gelatin to make beer clear.

Hey, hey! That comment was uncalled for! Point taken.

[zymot]

Cold steeping is a way to adjust color.

[harryfrog]

Cold steeping is a way to adjust color.

elaborate please...before boil, before mash, cracked or whole grains, what's a good choice of grains for this? I like the idea.

[Big Nake]

Cold steeping is a way to adjust color.

Oh, thanks for mentioning this. When I was recirculating the other day, I started to notice that the color was beginning to fade a little. I thought I had heard about this technique so I took an ounce of debittered black and added it to some cold water in a bowl with a lid. I shook it and left it there for about 5 minutes. Then I strained it and added that black liquid to the mash. I wasn't sure if it would add any roastiness, but it seemed to do what I wanted. Interesting stuff. Oh, and can I assume that 5 minutes is not really long enough or what's the story there?

[zymot]

elaborate please...before boil, before mash, cracked or whole grains, what's a good choice of grains for this? I like the idea.

Cold steeping is when you put some the grains in cold water and steep them. You make a malt tea. You can steep for a few minutes or a few hours. You do not get much starch conversion, you get mostly color and some basic characteristics. Roasted grains will give more of the charcoal part of the flavor profile.You can add the steep to the mash tun, boil kettle (before or after the start of the boil), primary or secondary. Primary and secondary additions have come with sanitation concerns. If you add the cold steep to the boil kettle, be diligent and watch out for boil overs, because it will.Cold steep some brown, chocolate, black patent or roasted malt. Boil it down and you have some homemade beer coloring.My thread from the Board of Greenzymot

[drewseslu]

CaraFa III Special Dehusked and something like Crisp Roasted Barley (680L) are also very useful tools.

[Big Nake]

I racked my Cerveza Oscura to a keg this past week and while it was racking, I grabbed a sample (the flavor was very nice) and saw that the color was a little lighter than I planned. I just watched the keg filling and then a light bulb... my bottle of Sinamar! I grabbed it and added about ¼ of the bottle (1 oz?) which I understand will add about 4 SRM to 5 gallons. The beer was a medium amber color so this should make it a little darker. Is it advised to add the Sinamar directly to the keg? Hope so. Should be interesting when I pull that first pint. Cheers.

[denny]

Well, I know it's a natural grain product, but it seems weird to add just color for the sake of color. Not that I'm against it necessarily. But I envision someone making a light lager and then spiking it with Sinamar... you'd SEE dark but you would TASTE light... sort of like your blacked out blonde. And this beer I had in Mexico was very probably made with it because it had way more color than the flavor would suggest. I also saw that many online references to Sinamar also mentioned how good it was in a Schwartzbier. I just found some online from a place in Shawnee, KS called Bacchus & Barley or something along those lines.

AFAIK, it's what Kostrizer uses to get the color in their schwarzbier....I use it a lot to make minor color adjustments on dark beers. I pick it up at my LHBS. I guess I have a hard time understanding why it would be "cheating".

[denny]

elaborate please...before boil, before mash, cracked or whole grains, what's a good choice of grains for this? I like the idea.

From George Fix on Cold SteepingQuestion to Dr. Fix:On the Brews & Views discussion board a couple months ago, someone mentioned a talk you gave regarding cold steeping of malts like Munich. I would very much appreciate it if you would elaborate on this technique. How do you do it, what does it do for the brew, what malts are good candidates for this technique.Dr. Fix:The talk was in the NCHF at Napa in October. Those folks on the left coast really know how to do a beer festival! The cold steeping procedure was designed to maximize the extraction of desirable melanoidins, and at the same time minimize the extraction of undesirable ones. The former are simple compounds which yield a fine malt taste. The undesirable ones come from more complicated structures. Polymers with sulfur compounds tend to have malt/vegetable tones. Others yield cloying tones, which to my palate have an under fermented character. The highest level melanoidins can even have burnt characteristics. The cold steeping procedure was developed by Mary Ann Gruber of Briess. My version goes as follows. * (i) One gallon of water per 3-4 lbs. of grains to be steeped is brought to a boil and held there for 5 mins. * (ii) The water is cooled down to ambient, and the cracked grains are added. * (iii) This mixture is left for 12-16 hrs. at ambient temperatures, and then added to the brew kettle for the last 15-20 mins. of the boil.Mary Ann has had good results by adding the steeped grains directly to the fermenter without boiling, however I have not tried that variation of the procedure.The upside of cold steeping is that it works. The downside is that it is very inefficient both with respect to extract and color. In my setup I am using 2-3 times the malt that would normally be used. As a consequence I have been using it for "adjunct malts" such as black and crystal. I also am very happy with the use of Munich malts with this process when they are used as secondary malts.

[Big Nake]

AFAIK, it's what Kostrizer uses to get the color in their schwarzbier....I use it a lot to make minor color adjustments on dark beers. I pick it up at my LHBS. I guess I have a hard time understanding why it would be "cheating".

I guess I equate it with food coloring. Again, I am so not against this... not in any way. I have made beers with raspberry extract from the grocery store as well as strawberry-flavored Kool-Aid for a Strawberry Blonde so I'm clearly willing to add just about anything that I think will enhance the flavor of my beer. But I've never really added anything just for color, IIRC. I have no idea what the Sinamar did for this particular beer because I added it directly to the keg. I won't actually see the color until the keg hits the taps, which may be in a week or 2. Maybe "cheating" is a strong word. Cheers.

[Humperdink]

I guess I equate it with food coloring. Again, I am so not against this... not in any way. I have made beers with raspberry extract from the grocery store as well as strawberry-flavored Kool-Aid for a Strawberry Blonde so I'm clearly willing to add just about anything that I think will enhance the flavor of my beer. But I've never really added anything just for color, IIRC. I have no idea what the Sinamar did for this particular beer because I added it directly to the keg. I won't actually see the color until the keg hits the taps, which may be in a week or 2. Maybe "cheating" is a strong word. Cheers.

BUMPHow'd it turn out for you Ken?

[Big Nake]

BUMPHow'd it turn out for you Ken?

Hey Chris: The beer itself turned out very nice (it's gone ) and the sinamar darkened the beer to a very pleasant reddish-brown color. The beer already had quite a bit of color (maybe 10-12 SRM) and the sinamar just bumped it a little higher, maybe 14-16 or so. I still have the rest of the bottle and would not hesitate to use it for a beer that I thought would benefit from it. This beer I originally used it on (my Cantina Cerveza Oscura) had some C120L and debittered black along with the sinamar... which gave the beer little-to-no roastiness at all so it it had a very light flavor with a big dark color. There was a hint of dark malt flavpr in the background, but nothing compared to the color. Cheers!

[Humperdink]

Hey Chris: The beer itself turned out very nice (it's gone ) and the sinamar darkened the beer to a very pleasant reddish-brown color. The beer already had quite a bit of color (maybe 10-12 SRM) and the sinamar just bumped it a little higher, maybe 14-16 or so. I still have the rest of the bottle and would not hesitate to use it for a beer that I thought would benefit from it. This beer I originally used it on (my Cantina Cerveza Oscura) had some C120L and debittered black along with the sinamar... which gave the beer little-to-no roastiness at all so it it had a very light flavor with a big dark color. There was a hint of dark malt flavpr in the background, but nothing compared to the color. Cheers!

Awesome Ken, I'm glad you got good results. Was the obscura what you were looking for?