18 replies to this topic

[Joe]

So I have never formulated a recipe (at least not successfully) so hopefully you guys can steer me in the right direction here. And to give credit where it is due - this is mostly based off of Ken's recipe with some modifications. (Don't worry Ken - if it turns out bad I won't associate your name with it!)

What I am after is a malty but dry altbier. I'm not too worried about stylistic accuracy. I initially wanted to make a dunkel or bock, but just can't get over the lager fear yet.

Here is the initial recipe - again borrowing very liberally from Ken's Otto's altbier:

Batch Size: 10 Gallons

11# Munich Dark
8# Pils
1# Caramunich III
1# Aromatic
1# Wheat Malt

Mash @ 148 degrees

1oz. Hallertau 3.1% (FWH)
1oz. Magnum 14.5%(60 minutes)

Wyeast 1007 German Ale Yeast

Projected OG: 1.057
Projected FG: 1.013
IBU: 32
SRM: 16

A few things I'm curious about is if the hops will be enough to balance the initial maltiness. I also want to be careful not to get too much roastiness from the caramunich - so I'm not sure if 1# is too much. Also - not sure if I should use a darker Munic or lighter Munich.

Any thoughts? If I can get the MLPA out of primary by this weekend, I'd like to brew an altbier this weekend.

[ncbeerbrewer]

So I have never formulated a recipe (at least not successfully) so hopefully you guys can steer me in the right direction here. And to give credit where it is due - this is mostly based off of Ken's recipe with some modifications. (Don't worry Ken - if it turns out bad I won't associate your name with it!)

What I am after is a malty but dry altbier. I'm not too worried about stylistic accuracy. I initially wanted to make a dunkel or bock, but just can't get over the lager fear yet.

Here is the initial recipe - again borrowing very liberally from Ken's Otto's altbier:

Batch Size: 10 Gallons

11# Munich Dark
8# Pils
1# Caramunich III
1# Aromatic
1# Wheat Malt

Mash @ 148 degrees

1oz. Hallertau 3.1% (FWH)
1oz. Magnum 14.5%(60 minutes)

Wyeast 1007 German Ale Yeast

Projected OG: 1.057
Projected FG: 1.013
IBU: 32
SRM: 16

A few things I'm curious about is if the hops will be enough to balance the initial maltiness. I also want to be careful not to get too much roastiness from the caramunich - so I'm not sure if 1# is too much. Also - not sure if I should use a darker Munic or lighter Munich.

Any thoughts? If I can get the MLPA out of primary by this weekend, I'd like to brew an altbier this weekend.

Joe: Overall for a 10 gallon recipe I don't see any problem with the recipe you give as posted. As to your question about the hops "by style" 35-50 IBU is the range for a Dussel Alt but I believe that if you go with what you show then yes there will be hop bitterness there but you would taste more malty flavors easier. If you wanted you could bump the 60 addition by maybe .25oz and get your IBU around 38-40 and I think it would be good too. I personally would bump it but I like hops in most of my beers as well. I had an ALT in a competition got honorable mention and was told the only thing I was missing was a tad more bitterness and mine was at 32IBU's too.

You are concerned about the CaraMunich malt which is a Belgian Crystal/Caramel malt. It is not characterized to add roastiness to your beer just more sugarly and possible to add more to mouthfeel. I say a lb for 10 gallons is ok in your recipe.

If you bump up your IBU's as you said I would go the darker Munich malt way. I use regular 10L Munich and have not tried the darker but I think if you did it would intensify your malty munich flavor as well.

I am not really sure you need any wheat in this recipe but if you want go for it. I would drop the wheat and bump up the Munich one lb.

Hope that helps, nice recipe formulation for a first attempt. Its a lot of fun and I hope you get to brewing it up as well. German Ale yeast 1007 can be really violent and a messy fermenting yeast but it attenuates really good so your lower mash temp should suit you well. Good Luck!!

[Big Nake]

I don't think you'll get roastiness from CaraMunich... it's similar to a crystal malt. I used Crystal 80°L in mine, I think the CaraMunich would accomplish the same thing. I like the hops with the FWH and then all of that Magnum up front. I think the bitterness from 14.5% of Magnum will balance it but keep it malty too. The mashing at 148° will help with the dryness you want, plus the 1007 is a low floccer which means it will stick around and attenuate well. If you look back in that long Alt thread, many of these guys wanted to talk me out of adding the wheat because it's not really to style. I don't know what (if anything) it adds taste-wise, but the head stability on this beer is outstanding and I attribute some of that to the wheat. I used 8 oz in 5 gallons which is not a lot, IMO. Also, I used Melanoidin because some of the guys here said it would add maltiness. You have Aromatic which also adds maltiness and will contribute to the overall maltiness of the beer along with the Munich. Also, Munich "light" is the one to use here. The only real way to know how this will come out is to make it.Ps. After having a few of my version yesterday, I concluded that it's very "soft & smooth" on the palate. It's well balanced but a little extra in the hop department may have been better. Good luck.EDIT: NC beat me to many of these comments! Cheers.

[VolFan]

Here is a recipe I got from French Broad Brewery, I just posted it in Ken's thread for ideas if someone wants to look at it. It leans toward the maltier side, but the hops are definitely present. I'm posting it just to give you an idea of someone else's interpretation. Brewer said they spent a couple weeks around Düsseldorf tasting and talking with other breweries.

Sorry it has taken so long. Here's a rough idea of the alt. Let me
know if I don't make any sense or you have any questions. Here we go.

Malt bill:
Pilsner 54%
Munich dark 36%
carapils 6%
Melanoidin 4%

Hops:
Perle 90mins 5.2 ibus
Perle 60mins 14.3 ibus
Spalt 60mins 4.8 ibus
Crystal 30mins 1.7 ibus
Spalt and crystal at knock-out roughly the same quantity as the 90 and
30 min pitches.

Ferment with kolsch yeast at 56 degrees.

[ncbeerbrewer]

Here is a recipe I got from French Broad Brewery, I just posted it in Ken's thread for ideas if someone wants to look at it. It leans toward the maltier side, but the hops are definitely present. I'm posting it just to give you an idea of someone else's interpretation. Brewer said they spent a couple weeks around Düsseldorf tasting and talking with other breweries.

Sorry it has taken so long. Here's a rough idea of the alt. Let me
know if I don't make any sense or you have any questions. Here we go.

Malt bill:
Pilsner 54%
Munich dark 36%
carapils 6%
Melanoidin 4%

Hops:
Perle 90mins 5.2 ibus
Perle 60mins 14.3 ibus
Spalt 60mins 4.8 ibus
Crystal 30mins 1.7 ibus
Spalt and crystal at knock-out roughly the same quantity as the 90 and
30 min pitches.

Ferment with kolsch yeast at 56 degrees.

Perfect timing. I just picked up a 22oz of the FB Alt last weekend and haven't tried it yet. How is their Alt Vol? I will have to take a peak at this recipe when I decide to open and consume this beer. Recipe makes sense to me.

[VolFan]

Perfect timing. I just picked up a 22oz of the FB Alt last weekend and haven't tried it yet. How is their Alt Vol? I will have to take a peak at this recipe when I decide to open and consume this beer. Recipe makes sense to me.

It's a clean tasting beer. I attribute a lot of that to the 56dF ferm temp. Brewer agreed when I spoke with him here at the Brewer's Fest this past fall.

I wish I had taken better tasting notes when I was in Düsseldorf. I think it would probably fall in the style of a Düsseldorf Alt compared to a North German. You get the hop presence and I think it balances well with the maltiness of the brew. I think they did a pretty good job with the style. It's pretty quaffable. It's the reason I sought the brewer out at the Fest. Very friendly guy if you happen to make it to Asheville. I/we plan on going this spring.

[Joe]

Thanks guys for all of the input. I think I'm going to leave the grain bill as is (I'll sub out the Munich Dark for standard Munich (10L?).On the hops I'll up the Magnum to 1.25 @60 and I'll use 1.5 of Hallertau for the FWH. That should put me solidly in the high 30's / low 40's IBU range. I don't have any software, so I think that is correct on the calculations.I'll be buying the ingredients Thursday and with any luck will be mashing in Friday night.Thanks again for everything.Joe

[Big Nake]

The calculator at Tastybrew.com is very simple and straightforward for determining OG, FG, IBU, SRM and ABV. I have ProMash and BeerTools but rarely use them because this one is so simple to use. Good luck with the Altbier, Joe. Cheers.

[Thirsty]

(I'll sub out the Munich Dark for standard Munich (10L?).

I think this a good idea. Ironically I am re-reading Greg Noonan's New Brewing Lager beer, and he mentions in the intro part to decocting how it is not necessary for many malts, however dark Munich benefits greatly due to poor enzyme amounts, being only 1/3 that of a pale malt. (higher kilning lends to this). So to get the nice full effect from the munich, I would think it is best to stick to a standard, unless you do plan on a decoction step.

[zymot]

If this was my alt and I had a choice, I would go with a 60 minute hop that is more nobel. I love magnums, they are every neutral. I think the 1 oz Hallertau FWH will get swamped by the magnum and you will have no hop character.The most traditional Alt hop is Spalt, but you could substitute just about any nobel hop. Substitute HBU for HBU. You could mix Magnum and Spalt, or what ever you can get.Beersmith calculates 1 oz of 14.50% 60 min hops in 1.57 OG to be 59 IBU Raegar, 45 IBU Tinseth. A tad higher than traditional Alts. With magnum it might not taste that as high, they are very mellow.The Wyeast 1007 is a must in my book for alts. Other strains do not come out how I like alts.Just my take on it.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I love magnums, they are every neutral. I think the 1 oz Hallertau FWH will get swamped by the magnum and you will have no hop character.

I'm a little confused here - why would the FWH addition be masked (I have to think this is what swamped means) by a hop that is neutral?

[Big Nake]

I'm not a big FWH guy, but I was under the impression that the FWH acted a lot like a "flavor hop" that's added in the 15-to-20-minutes-left-in-the-boil kind of addition. So if you added Magnum at 60 and then Hallertau at 15 or 20, the "hop flavor" that you get should come from that addition, no?

[Joe]

Beersmith calculates 1 oz of 14.50% 60 min hops in 1.57 OG to be 59 IBU Raegar, 45 IBU Tinseth. A tad higher than traditional Alts. With magnum it might not taste that as high, they are very mellow.

Thanks for the feedback zymot. Was your calculation done on a 10 gallon or 5 gallon batch? Using the tastybrew calculator, the IBU rating comes much lower. I was throwing around keeping the Magnum at 1 ounce and just uping the Hallertau to 1.5 or 2 ounces in the FWH. I don't want to overhop the beer but I do want to keep in balanced. I shied away from Spalt because I've heard from many homebrewers that the spiciness takes a little getting used to and a flavor that many people don't care for. I guess there is only one way to find out - I'm sure this won't be my last alt so I can experiment with that hop later.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I'm not a big FWH guy, but I was under the impression that the FWH acted a lot like a "flavor hop" that's added in the 15-to-20-minutes-left-in-the-boil kind of addition. So if you added Magnum at 60 and then Hallertau at 15 or 20, the "hop flavor" that you get should come from that addition, no?

that's the assumption I operated under when I made my munich dunkel with a Hallertau MF FWH and Magnum 60 min addition.

[zymot]

Thanks for the feedback zymot. Was your calculation done on a 10 gallon or 5 gallon batch? Using the tastybrew calculator, the IBU rating comes much lower. I was throwing around keeping the Magnum at 1 ounce and just uping the Hallertau to 1.5 or 2 ounces in the FWH. I don't want to overhop the beer but I do want to keep in balanced.

My wrong. My calculations were set at 5 gallons.

Bring up the Hallertau will not hurt. In my Alt it would very welcome. 2 oz of 3.1 AA FWH is a thumbs up, IMHO.

I shied away from Spalt because I've heard from many homebrewers that the spiciness takes a little getting used to and a flavor that many people don't care for. I guess there is only one way to find out - I'm sure this won't be my last alt so I can experiment with that hop later.

To me, spalt is a variation on the noble hop theme. Polite and typical noble spiciness. If you were to load up with 15-0 minute additions, maybe a problem. I like them as much as any other noble. I speculate they are clearly the hop of first choice for an alt.

Magnums are pure hop bitterness. No citrus, no spicy, no grassy, no any other hop adjective people use. Using them will do no harm, that is for sure.

Brew it as you like it and brew on.

zymot

[Big Nake]

Magnums are pure hop bitterness. No citrus, no spicy, no grassy, no any other hop adjective people use. Using them will do no harm, that is for sure.

I can back this up. This Altbier came out very smooth, balanced and clean and the Magnum that I used in mine was actually labeled as Yakima Magnum which some people thought may have a different origin, including me. But I used them anyway and the bittering is ultra-clean, no question. I really need to get some addition Magnum that are German so I can compare. I could even see using Magnum (sparingly, of course) in something lighter like a Kolsch, a wheat beer and maybe even a Pilsner. Yes, they're that clean. Cheers.

[Joe]

Great - I'll use 2 oz. Hallertau FWH and just stick with 1 oz. Magnum at 60. I have a feeling that altbier very well may become a favorite style for me, so I'm sure I'll be playing around with different hops and grain bills in the future. The comment on Spalt adding an odd taste was from the Jamil show I believe - and I don't remember exactly how he phrased it, but he did mention that he shies away from that hop because of the comments he gets. But you are right in that Spalt does appear to be the hop of choice in alts.Ken - thanks again for all of the good information you have out there. I have a feeling I'm going to be brewing a lot of your recipes in the coming months.Should be mashing in Friday night (assuming I can get two new fermenters since the MLPA is dragging a little slow on the fermentation).

[zymot]

The comment on Spalt adding an odd taste was from the Jamil show I believe - and I don't remember exactly how he phrased it, but he did mention that he shies away from that hop because of the comments he gets. But you are right in that Spalt does appear to be the hop of choice in alts.

Interesting..... I have used spalt in FWH, 60 minute additions, flavor and aroma additions in my various alts. Never had any second thoughts. If there is a place avoid spalt might be in the flavor and aroma additions. Go with a more conventional noble hop. Then again, I have a tendency to put little or no flavor or aroma hop additions in my alts. I have made most alts with only 60 minute and FWH additions. zymot

[Joe]

10 Gallons of the alt is still cold conditioning but I pulled off 2 gallons and bottled it two weeks ago. Drank a few bottles last week and I really enjoyed it. Boy is it malty. You really get chewy munich flavor. The huge malt profile almost gives you the sense that the beer is heavier than it really is. It does finish fairly dry, but probably not as dry as it should based on style guidelines. It really has a clean lager-like quality as well - can't wait to try the lagered version.Still, I really like this one. A friend who tried it thought it was a MaiBock - so I'm sure I am completely out of style for an alt, but it's still really good beer.Next time I may add more hops to balance against the malt bit more - both in IBU as well as flavor/aroma.