19 replies to this topic

[Humperdink]

Can anyone enlighten me as to why the generally accepted minimum calcium PPM for yeast health is 50, but pilsners are brewed with super soft water with calcium concentrations in the single digit PPM? To me, this is one of the best styles. How can such a great beer be brewed with so much lower concentrations of calcium than is the generally accepted minimum?This makes me question the things that are being accepted as gospel. Am I alone in questioning this apparent discrepancy?

[stellarbrew]

Can anyone enlighten me as to why the generally accepted minimum calcium PPM for yeast health is 50, but pilsners are brewed with super soft water with calcium concentrations in the single digit PPM? To me, this is one of the best styles. How can such a great beer be brewed with so much lower concentrations of calcium than is the generally accepted minimum?This makes me question the things that are being accepted as gospel. Am I alone in questioning this apparent discrepancy?

I believe that if you do not have enough calcium naturally occuring in your water, and you are not mashing enough dark malts to lower the pH sufficiently, then you should add enough calcium to the mash to acheive the optimum mash pH. If you are brewing a Pilsener, with only light base malts, and you have sub-50ppm water, then you will not be able to get the pH low enough, and adding calcium in the form of gypsum or calcium chloride is your best bet. The more traditional way of lowering the pH in very light mashes with very soft water was to do an acid mash to allow a naturally occuring enzyme to lower the mash pH without mineral additions.

Edited by stellarbrew, 13 January 2010 - 12:24 PM.

[Humperdink]

I believe that if you do not have enough calcium naturally occuring in your water, and you are not mashing enough dark malts to lower the pH sufficiently, then you should add enough calcium to the mash to acheive the optimum mash pH. If you are brewing a Pilsener, with only light base malts, and you have sub-50ppm water, then you will not be able to acheive get the pH down enough, and adding calcium in the form of gypsum or calcium chloride is your best bet. The more traditional way of lowering the pH in very light mashes with very soft water was to do a acid mash to allow a naturally occuring enzyme to lower the mash pH without mineral additions.

I would agree with that for pH, however the 50PPM minimum was for yeast health not for the pH.

[stellarbrew]

I would agree with that for pH, however the 50PPM minimum was for yeast health not for the pH.

The way an acid mash works is to lower the pH by breaking away calcium that is naturally bound up in the malt. Thus, the needed calcium for yeast nutrition should also be supplied this way.

[Humperdink]

The way an acid mash works is to lower the pH by breaking away calcium that is naturally bound up in the malt. Thus, the needed calcium for yeast nutrition should also be supplied this way.

Interesting angle. Thanks stellar. Any literature you can think of that you would point me towards to get a better idea of how much calcium acid rests strip from the malts?

[stellarbrew]

Interesting angle. Thanks stellar. Any literature you can think of that you would point me towards to get a better idea of how much calcium acid rests strip from the malts?

The way I found out about the acid rest was by reading Palmer's "How to Brew". I don't recall how much he delves into the issue in that book, but I believe he supplies references that you consult more a more in-depth study of the issue.

Edited by stellarbrew, 13 January 2010 - 12:32 PM.

[Humperdink]

Once again brews bros comes through! God I love this place.

[MtnBrewer]

The way an acid mash works is to lower the pH by breaking away calcium that is naturally bound up in the malt. Thus, the needed calcium for yeast nutrition should also be supplied this way.

But then that calcium would be used to lower the pH and wouldn't be available for the yeast, right?

[stellarbrew]

But then that calcium would be used to lower the pH and wouldn't be available for the yeast, right?

I assumed that the calcium would remain free and available for yeast consumption, but I am certainly not an expert in this matter. My knowledege of organic chemistry is far too limited to make an argument one way or another. When the calcium lowers the pH, does it bind it in such a way as to make it unavailable?

[MtnBrewer]

I assumed that the calcium would remain free and available for yeast consumption, but I am certainly not an expert in this matter. My knowledege of organic chemistry is far too limited to make an argument one way or another. When the calcium lowers the pH, does it bind it in such a way as to make it unavailable?

I would presume so since Ca⁺⁺ ions alone will not lower pH. There must be some sort of reaction or else nothing would change. I'll also confess to almost total ignorance of the 50 ppm requirement for yeast. I know that JP recommends that level and that's good enough for me. But I don't know if it needs to be ionic Ca or if it can be in a compound of some kind or even why the yeast need it.

[Howie]

I would presume so since Ca⁺⁺ ions alone will not lower pH. There must be some sort of reaction or else nothing would change. I'll also confess to almost total ignorance of the 50 ppm requirement for yeast. I know that JP recommends that level and that's good enough for me. But I don't know if it needs to be ionic Ca or if it can be in a compound of some kind or even why the yeast need it.

In the Brew Strong episode on clarity, Dr Bamforth also cited the importance of having 50ppm calcium in your brewing water. He said you need it for clarity as well. I think between Dr Bamforth and John Palmer, I'll just do it and not worry.Also, to the OP, bear in mind that just because the water is Pilsen is that soft, it doesn't mean that they aren't treating it at the brewery.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Also, to the OP, bear in mind that just because the water is Pilsen is that soft, it doesn't mean that they aren't treating it at the brewery.

back in the day brewers treated the water by using grains that made good beer. that's why certain styles developed in certain locations.

[Howie]

back in the day brewers treated the water by using grains that made good beer. that's why certain styles developed in certain locations.

Yes, I realize that. However, that doesn't mean that is still how they do it today.Dan Gordon says that Pils Urquell doesn't even use Saaz hops anymore. . .

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Yes, I realize that. However, that doesn't mean that is still how they do it today.Dan Gordon says that Pils Urquell doesn't even use Saaz hops anymore. . .

I'd think using soft water would still make things seem more "authentic" but who knows. No saaz????

[Howie]

I'd think using soft water would still make things seem more "authentic" but who knows. No saaz????

Yeah, he said on one of the episodes of the Session that the Czech government controls the hops and makes much more money off of selling the hops abroad. I think he said Urquell uses a blend of other stuff.

[Big Nake]

Not to veer off course here, but my Ward Labs report shows my calcium number at 34. On almost all beers, I add either calcium chloride or gypsum to my mash (depending on style) and I only add a small amount, like say 1 tsp or so. Where can I find the info for how many ppms of calcium I'm adding by using 1 tsp of calcium chloride? This is the part of homebrewing that makes my teeth itch.

[Humperdink]

Not to veer off course here, but my Ward Labs report shows my calcium number at 34. On almost all beers, I add either calcium chloride or gypsum to my mash (depending on style) and I only add a small amount, like say 1 tsp or so. Where can I find the info for how many ppms of calcium I'm adding by using 1 tsp of calcium chloride? This is the part of homebrewing that makes my teeth itch.

Here's a link to palmer that gives estimates for grams per teaspoons and how many PPM of each per gram.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Here's a link to palmer that gives estimates for grams per teaspoons and how many PPM of each per gram.

Ken, even better just use Palmer's spreadsheet and then you'll know all the levels of other stuff as well!

[Steve Urquell]

I've been adjusting all my own brewing water for awhile b/c I have iron laden well water. I just buy RO water from the culligan machine at wally world ($.30/gal.) and add minerals to reach the style for the beer.I like to use these two free brewing water calculators together to arrive at what I need. https://www.bonniebl...wcalc/water.php The amts are in grams.https://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/

[Humperdink]

But then that calcium would be used to lower the pH and wouldn't be available for the yeast, right?

*BUMP*I emailed Jamil right around when this topic came up to ask him his take on it. It came up on the latest brew strong episode an hour into "The Boil". Palmer stated that all of the brewing chemists he knows consider the mash and boil to be a box and whatever calcium goes in stays in solution. Long short of it anyway.