51 replies to this topic

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I was discussing brewing with someone recently and they seemed to think they were more common. I'm just curious how common it is...

[MakeMeHoppy]

Never, the closest I came was making a scottish ale I took the first gallon of wort and boiled it down and then added back to the brew kettle.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

Never, the closest I came was making a scottish ale I took the first gallon of wort and boiled it down and then added back to the brew kettle.

been there - done that. seemed like it worked well but I haven't officially put the beer on tap yet.

[MtnBrewer]

I was discussing brewing with someone recently and they seemed to think they were more common. I'm just curious how common it is...

In the US, not very. A lot of traditional breweries in Europe still do decoctions. I think I've done a total of 2 or 3 in 20 years of brewing.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

In the US, not very. A lot of traditional breweries in Europe still do decoctions. I think I've done a total of 2 or 3 in 20 years of brewing.

I know we've had the discussion here before but I seem to remember "tradition" is one of the few reasons to do them anymore. Is that generally correct?

[chuck_d]

I see only 3 main reasons to do decoctions:1. To deal with poorly modified malt.2. To achieve a mash with several steps using a mash tun which cannot be directly heated.3. You have a proven recipe and process that works on your equipment and don't want to risk change.Additionally, you could also market your beer as made with "traditional German" methods.

[Thirsty]

There is a guy that enters most of the local comps around here, and he cleans up. I have had the pleasure of judging his beer a few times, and it is truly amazing. When I met him, judging the same comp, I asked him to share some of his secrets. He says he decocts almost everything. It may not be necessary, but you are not going to make a worse beer, only a better one. He is a stovetop AGer, and says it does take a lot of maneuvering and time, but that he has, and the maltiness in his lagers is so clean, it is perfect. To the point I think what I have drank is much better than the commercial examples of the styles. As Chuck pointed out there are reasons to do them, and in most of our situations it is unnecessary, however it isnt going to hurt either.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

There is a guy that enters most of the local comps around here, and he cleans up. I have had the pleasure of judging his beer a few times, and it is truly amazing. When I met him, judging the same comp, I asked him to share some of his secrets. He says he decocts almost everything. It may not be necessary, but you are not going to make a worse beer, only a better one. He is a stovetop AGer, and says it does take a lot of maneuvering and time, but that he has, and the maltiness in his lagers is so clean, it is perfect. To the point I think what I have drank is much better than the commercial examples of the styles. As Chuck pointed out there are reasons to do them, and in most of our situations it is unnecessary, however it isnt going to hurt either.

The only way to know if the decoctions are really the answer would be for this guy to do a side by side comparison using some other method to achieve maltiness.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

There is an interesting interview with Dan Gordon of Gordon Birsch on The Brewing Network. He says that certain flavor compounds can only be extracted by bursting the grains during a decoction. He gave some specifics. I'll have to give it another listen.

[stellarbrew]

I have heard that Samuel Adams still decocts their Boston Lager. I could see how this would fit into #3 on chuck_d's list (above). However, I detect a particular rich malty flavor in Boston Lager that I have been unable to exactly duplicate in the few BL clones I've done. Munich malt addition wasn't the answer, Melanoidin malt addition wasn't the answer, higher mash temperature wasn't the answer, and none of the yeast strains I tried were the answer. I assume that the elusive flavor component was due to the particular melanoidin mix contributed by the decoction. In my latest try, I boiled the wort for two hours to see if that might reasonably replicate those melanoidins. It's fermenting now - if that doesn't give satisfactory results when I taste it, I was considering trying a decoction on my next iteration.

[Thirsty]

I assume that the elusive flavor component was due to the particular melanoidin mix contributed by the decoction. In my latest try, I boiled the wort for two hours to see if that might reasonably replicate those melanoidins.

Denny has stated in the past that as far as his research shows, melanoidins are an appearance trait and not a flavor component. I don't want to speak for him, but that is how interpreted a past statement in another thread. These deeper malt flavors are coming from a maillard component, that an extended boil may contribute, but cooking the grains seems to be the most logical contributor.

[stellarbrew]

Denny has stated in the past that as far as his research shows, melanoidins are an appearance trait and not a flavor component. I don't want to speak for him, but that is how interpreted a past statement in another thread. These deeper malt flavors are coming from a maillard component, that an extended boil may contribute, but cooking the grains seems to be the most logical contributor.

Interesting, I'll have to go back and do some re-reading. I was under the impression that melanoidins are a product of the Maillard reaction.

[Thirsty]

Interesting, I'll have to go back and do some re-reading. I was under the impression that melanoidins are a product of the Maillard reaction.

I always was too! I think that maybe they are always mentioned in the same context and we just assume they are flavor contributions not color? Maybe denny is lurking and give some insight.

[denny]

but you are not going to make a worse beer, only a better one.

There are those who did a blind tasting who might disagree with that....https://www.ahaconfe...8/DennyConn.pdfstart on pg. 25

[denny]

Denny has stated in the past that as far as his research shows, melanoidins are an appearance trait and not a flavor component. I don't want to speak for him, but that is how interpreted a past statement in another thread. These deeper malt flavors are coming from a maillard component, that an extended boil may contribute, but cooking the grains seems to be the most logical contributor.

You have summarized my point well!

[denny]

Interesting, I'll have to go back and do some re-reading. I was under the impression that melanoidins are a product of the Maillard reaction.

Yes, they are, but they're responsible for color, not flavor.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

Melanoidins do contibute color and antioxidant properties but flavor compounds are created during the maillard reaction.

[RommelMagic]

The closest I've ever come to a decoction was when I direct heated my mash.

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I would not say that I do them all the time ,but the last 3 batches have been triple decoctions. I highly suggest if you are an AG brewer that you TRY it at least once and you'll see have easy it is to do. If you are a traditionalist especially when brewing German style beers this is the only way to go to get that maltiness right. Its a usefull tool also when you undershoot your mash temps as you can bring it up to the correct temp by using a decoction mash.Start here if you want to see it done in an easy to follow mannor. very interesting to watch at very least.

this is a great video - why doesn't boiling the grains extract tannins?