20 replies to this topic

[johnpreuss]

Ok, I made my first all grain batch about a month ago and bottle it about 10 days ago. So I crack one open tonight and it's not real fizzy... then I give it a taste, winey sour taste. I can't really decide if it's vinegary or sour wine. So, what happened? I'm pretty new to brewing this was my 8th batch but have never had sanitation problems before. Not to say it couldn't have been infected. There isnt anything growing on top but well.. I don't know.Any thoughts??

[ncbeerbrewer]

First off, Welcome to the board. If this beer of yours is sour this was the place to come. This group will set you straight though for sure. My first question would be what sorta beer did you brew? What was the recipe? Can you describe your process too? I think that will get the wheels in motion and someone can try and figure this one out for you. I do know though 10 days after bottling is pretty early to taste a beer so lack of carbonation at that point makes sense. I would suggest almost 4 weeks for it to be acceptable. Cheers.

[ChefLamont]

Yea welcome!ncbeerbrewer is right we need some more details to start the dissection. However, it is already interesting. Sour would imply infection as one of the possibilities, but 10 days is awfully early for that to set in and be noticeable. Is it a light hint or is it a pretty strong taste?

[johnpreuss]

First off, Welcome to the board. If this beer of yours is sour this was the place to come. This group will set you straight though for sure. My first question would be what sorta beer did you brew? What was the recipe? Can you describe your process too? I think that will get the wheels in motion and someone can try and figure this one out for you. I do know though 10 days after bottling is pretty early to taste a beer so lack of carbonation at that point makes sense. I would suggest almost 4 weeks for it to be acceptable. Cheers.

Well I brewed a batch of Ken Lenard's MLPA:7 lbs 2 Row1 lb Crystal 601 lb Wheat Malt1 oz Mt Hood (4.5 %AA) 60 min.5 oz Czech Saaz (2.3% AA) 60 minMashed for 60 min @ 150-152 then batch sparged. Boiled in a keggle for 60 minutes. Cooled with an imersion chiller down to 66 degrees in about 20 min. Pitched rehydrated US-05 fermented in a bucket @ 65 degrees for 10 days w/a blowoff tube. Racked to a secondary where it never seemed to clear. Bottled it 7 days later. Then I tried it 10 days after that.I know Chef said 10 days isn't very long but I've never need more than that for it to carb up. But as I said I'm pretty new to this so I could be wrong.

[ncbeerbrewer]

Well looking at your process and seeing the beer you brewed its hard to find any problems with what might have gone wrong. I think your process looks good and solid and Ken's recipe is great as well. Did you use all fresh grains or within reason? My next thought is how many bottles have your tried so far? Maybe its only one bottle then perhaps it was not as clean and got infected in those 10 days. If you have had several bottles and they all taste sour then it seems a bit tougher right now too.

[jammer]

Well I brewed a batch of Ken Lenard's MLPA:7 lbs 2 Row1 lb Crystal 601 lb Wheat Malt1 oz Mt Hood (4.5 %AA) 60 min.5 oz Czech Saaz (2.3% AA) 60 minMashed for 60 min @ 150-152 then batch sparged. Boiled in a keggle for 60 minutes. Cooled with an imersion chiller down to 66 degrees in about 20 min. Pitched rehydrated US-05 fermented in a bucket @ 65 degrees for 10 days w/a blowoff tube. Racked to a secondary where it never seemed to clear. Bottled it 7 days later. Then I tried it 10 days after that.I know Chef said 10 days isn't very long but I've never need more than that for it to carb up. But as I said I'm pretty new to this so I could be wrong.

no hydrometer readings? 17 days total fermentation at 65 degrees? maybe it wasnt done fermenting... but if that was the case, youd probably have plenty of carbonation. Its hard to say. Id let them sit a few more weeks then chill a few in the fridge and try them again.

[3rd party JKor]

The carb time is dependent on the health of the yeast when you add the priming sugar. For whatever reason the yeast might not have been as healthy as other batches.If your beer has a distinct sour/vinegary taste, it may be infected. If it's not as prominent, it could be some 'young beer' flavor. Like NCBB said, it could just be one, or a couple, bottles. I'd let it sit a few more weeks and cold condition it for at least a week or two. Then make the judgment.What is your cleaning/sanitizing routine? What products do you use?

Edited by JKoravos, 20 December 2009 - 09:19 AM.

[Thirsty]

What temp are your bottles at during their carb period? Previous batches may have been in an area that was 68-70 deg and carbed well in 10 days, that area may now be 64-66 deg, and that will slow things down, even just a few degrees.

[johnpreuss]

no hydrometer readings? 17 days total fermentation at 65 degrees? maybe it wasnt done fermenting... but if that was the case, youd probably have plenty of carbonation. Its hard to say. Id let them sit a few more weeks then chill a few in the fridge and try them again.

Ok I checked my notes and I was mistaken, I fermented for 13 days at 65 in the primary. OG was 1.052 and gravity was down to 1.010 when I racked to the secondary. To answer some other questions the grains should have been good because I used the same grain in a batch of dunkleweizen a couple weeks earlier that turned out good. As for sanitizing I was using bleach - the cheap kind, not clorox. I had never had problems before. (Please note since then I have bought a jug of non-foaming star san, all that I had available to me previously was one step but I could not find anywhere on that package saying it was a sanitizer so I used what I had.)To answer the whether it was just one bottle, I like to taste the little left that won't fill the last bottle and I thought it was sour then but was hoping it was just young.

[jammer]

Ok I checked my notes and I was mistaken, I fermented for 13 days at 65 in the primary. OG was 1.052 and gravity was down to 1.010 when I racked to the secondary. To answer some other questions the grains should have been good because I used the same grain in a batch of dunkleweizen a couple weeks earlier that turned out good. As for sanitizing I was using bleach - the cheap kind, not clorox. I had never had problems before. (Please note since then I have bought a jug of non-foaming star san, all that I had available to me previously was one step but I could not find anywhere on that package saying it was a sanitizer so I used what I had.)To answer the whether it was just one bottle, I like to taste the little left that won't fill the last bottle and I thought it was sour then but was hoping it was just young.

IMO, give it some time. Youre probably fine.

[Stout_fan]

I'm presuming that you have brewed extract beers before with good results and your ability to produce a sanitary environment is a given.So the only variable here is the AG.Did you mill your grain in the same area where you brewed it?Grain contains lactobacillus in the husk.Milling produces dust and carries the bacteria. Could this have infected your beer post boil?

[ThroatwobblerMangrove]

I'm presuming that you have brewed extract beers before with good results and your ability to produce a sanitary environment is a given.So the only variable here is the AG.Did you mill your grain in the same area where you brewed it?Grain contains lactobacillus in the husk.Milling produces dust and carries the bacteria. Could this have infected your beer post boil?

I've often wondered about this - how far away should I be milling my grain? I mill outside my garage door (and brew in the garage) but I'm sure some of the stuff is kind of blowing around still. the problem is this time of year it's cold as hell outside...

[Slainte]

As for sanitizing I was using bleach - the cheap kind, not clorox. I had never had problems before. (Please note since then I have bought a jug of non-foaming star san, all that I had available to me previously was one step but I could not find anywhere on that package saying it was a sanitizer so I used what I had.)

What are you doing to clean your equipment? Is it possible your rinsing water for the bleach sanitizing solution wasn't completely sanitary?By non-foaming starsan, do you mean saniclean? There is no such thing as a non-foaming starsan...

To answer the whether it was just one bottle, I like to taste the little left that won't fill the last bottle and I thought it was sour then but was hoping it was just young.

So you bottle conditioned a partial bottle of beer and that's what you sampled? That could explain why it's not that fizzy, due to the larger headspace in the bottle.Also, there's a good chance a lot of oxygen was introduced to that sample, and if your beer is indeed infected, then that could explain the vinegar taste. Brettanomyces and and Acetobacter in particular produce lots of vinegar with the introduction of oxygen.

[johnpreuss]

What are you doing to clean your equipment? Is it possible your rinsing water for the bleach sanitizing solution wasn't completely sanitary?By non-foaming starsan, do you mean saniclean? There is no such thing as a non-foaming starsan...So you bottle conditioned a partial bottle of beer and that's what you sampled? That could explain why it's not that fizzy, due to the larger headspace in the bottle.Also, there's a good chance a lot of oxygen was introduced to that sample, and if your beer is indeed infected, then that could explain the vinegar taste. Brettanomyces and and Acetobacter in particular produce lots of vinegar with the introduction of oxygen.

Yes saniclean. No... I did not bottle condition a partial bottle of beer. What I was saying is that I sampled that extra 6 oz or so that was left at then end of bottling.As for where I milled the grain that would have been my LHBS, however there could have been a chance that I contaminated the carboy when I filled my cooler w/the grain. Both were sitting on the table. I planned to get the mash going then I was going to transfer the MLPA from the primary to the carboy (Secondary).

[Slainte]

Yeah, you very well could've contaminated the carboy if you did not clean and sanitize it after pouring the grain.What is your cleaning process like? What are you using to clean your equipment?

[johnpreuss]

Yeah, you very well could've contaminated the carboy if you did not clean and sanitize it after pouring the grain.What is your cleaning process like? What are you using to clean your equipment?

I usually let everything soak over night in a scoop of oxyclean. Give everything a good rinse in the morning then sanitize.

[Stout_fan]

I've often wondered about this - how far away should I be milling my grain? I mill outside my garage door (and brew in the garage) but I'm sure some of the stuff is kind of blowing around still. the problem is this time of year it's cold as hell outside...

I mill about 15 feet from where I brew. But it is outside and in 4 hours whatever was there should be long gone.I would think that you'd be fine.I was more worried about milling inside in the kitchen or such.

[Thirsty]

however there could have been a chance that I contaminated the carboy when I filled my cooler w/the grain. Both were sitting on the table.

I like to put just a couple cups of starsan solution into my fermenter during the brewday, right before I need to fill it, I put it on its side and roll it back and forth to coat, then dump it out. Now I know I have a sanitized fermenter to fill, no need to going filling the whole thing up with sanitizer, just a quick coating before needed.

[Stout_fan]

... however there could have been a chance that I contaminated the carboy when I filled my cooler w/the grain. Both were sitting on the table....

Not just "a chance" but rather "the culprit".This is where you hosed it. Always sanitize as close as possible to the time you use a vessel. Thirsty's procedure is a good one IMHO.

[MakeMeHoppy]

I haven't seen a lot of people brew but my process is once I hit my boil and I don't have to watch too closely I start to sanitize. I use iodophor and fill a bucket with about 3 gallons. I siphon about 1 gallon into the carboy through the autosiphon and the shake up the carboy to coat the entire inside. I then cover it and repeat about every 10-15 minutes. I empty the iodophor just before filling from the kettle. I soak anything else I need in the bucket including the autosiphon and tubing as well as the airlock etc. The only downside is that my tubing is discolored, but I can still see through it.