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Mash Hops, Bitterness and PM


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#1 BlKtRe

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Posted 01 February 2023 - 09:12 AM

It's been literally a decade since I last mash hopped but I decided to go ahead and brew with Star Party and Phantasm. As I was building my recipe in Pro Mash the MH were listed at almost 35 IBU's. I'm pretty sure MH never contribute bitterness (maybe a little if some pellets got through) but this threw me when building my recipe. So I decided I'd taste the wort once at pre boil. Wasn't bitter at all. So I carried on finishing the hop bill minus the 35 IBU. Anybody here still using PM and have this happen to you? 



#2 HVB

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Posted 01 February 2023 - 09:23 AM

I have always assumed they add zero or at least zero perceivable IBU's.  I do not use Promash but I just tested out a recipe in Beersmith on my phone and that calculates 56g of cascade to add 1.2 IBU in a 6g batch.  I would just go with your gut on this one and not include the mash hop IBU it calculates.



#3 dmtaylor

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Posted 04 February 2023 - 04:59 AM

ProMash hasn't been updated for 20 years.  I'm surprised anyone still uses it.

 

I reality, mash hops only add a handful of IBUs.  You would have use a metric buttload to get anything significant from them.  I agree it is pretty much safe to ignore their contribution unless using pounds.  I don't know of a good calculator out there for them, the fad is still too new.



#4 denny

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Posted 04 February 2023 - 12:31 PM

Dan LIstermann did a beer where the MH were calced at 130ish.  When analyzed it had about 15.



#5 BlKtRe

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Posted 04 February 2023 - 03:43 PM

ProMash hasn't been updated for 20 years.  I'm surprised anyone still uses it.

 

I reality, mash hops only add a handful of IBUs.  You would have use a metric buttload to get anything significant from them.  I agree it is pretty much safe to ignore their contribution unless using pounds.  I don't know of a good calculator out there for them, the fad is still too new.

 

 

MH is coming back. Used to be a big thing decade or more ago, kind of. My guess because of the Thiol theories. I agree as memory serves on the IBU contribution. I was just surprised to see PM add it mainly because I couldn't remember ever seeing way back then. Nothing wrong with PM. It was the only software available when I started brewing. All my recipes are there plus the program just works. I see no reason to spend a decent amount of money say on BS then have to learn it. If it isn't broke don't fix it. 



#6 denny

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Posted 05 February 2023 - 12:50 PM

No, it

 

MH is coming back. Used to be a big thing decade or more ago, kind of. My guess because of the Thiol theories. I agree as memory serves on the IBU contribution. I was just surprised to see PM add it mainly because I couldn't remember ever seeing way back then. Nothing wrong with PM. It was the only software available when I started brewing. All my recipes are there plus the program just works. I see no reason to spend a decent amount of money say on BS then have to learn it. If it isn't broke don't fix it.

 

It's been here all along. I used PM for many, many years.  Still would but once I went to Grainfather equipment it made more sense to use their software.



#7 Genesee Ted

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Posted 06 February 2023 - 11:27 AM

FWIW Omega and Berkeley have found that about a third of the IBU contribution from mash hops come through as if they were all added at 60.

I mash hop all my IPA’s these days and while I haven’t sent the beers off for analysis, I would say that this is a pretty good estimate. YMMV based on equipment but it has served me well as a rule of thumb

#8 HVB

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Posted 06 February 2023 - 12:52 PM

FWIW Omega and Berkeley have found that about a third of the IBU contribution from mash hops come through as if they were all added at 60.

I mash hop all my IPA’s these days and while I haven’t sent the beers off for analysis, I would say that this is a pretty good estimate. YMMV based on equipment but it has served me well as a rule of thumb

What variety are you using for a mash hop?  Or does it change?



#9 Genesee Ted

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Posted 06 February 2023 - 06:39 PM

I have used quite a few. Cascade, mosaic, galaxy, saaz, huell melon, hallertau blanc, calypso, nugget, strata, citra, comet... More than that, I just don’t remember off hand.

Some work better than others. So far my takeaway has been to save expensive, sexy varieties for dry hop. Another consideration is to limit AA% in the mash, due to ~30% of them being the same as a 60 min addition. Nugget has great mash hop character, but is a bit higher in alphas, so it’s something to keep in mind. You can go nuts with cheap low alpha hops tho.

You don’t get traditional varietal characteristics from these either. The bitterness is whatever. Just like anything else. Yeah yeah yeah, someone out there can tell the difference between chinook for bittering vs magnum vs whatever. Personally, I can’t tell, maybe I could in a perfect trial but alpha is alpha.

Cascade mash hop doesn’t taste like cascade dry hops tho. It’s more pineapple, mango, guava than tangerine/Ruby red/pine.

It’s been a great experience learning how these hops that I have been familiar with for so long used a certain way do one thing I expect, but used differently has a wildly different impact to the final beer

#10 positiveContact

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Posted 07 February 2023 - 06:46 AM

Cascade mash hop doesn’t taste like cascade dry hops tho. It’s more pineapple, mango, guava than tangerine/Ruby red/pine.

It’s been a great experience learning how these hops that I have been familiar with for so long used a certain way do one thing I expect, but used differently has a wildly different impact to the final beer

 

and this is something you can pretty easily detect?

 

I feel like mash hopping has come and gone at least once or twice already just since I've been brewing.  after something like this falls out I kind of assume it's because it didn't really have the impact people were hoping it would.  how do you know what to attribute certain flavors to in the finished product?  are you comparing batches with and without mash hops?  or maybe trying a beer with only mash hop additions?



#11 HVB

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Posted 07 February 2023 - 07:23 AM

and this is something you can pretty easily detect?

 

I feel like mash hopping has come and gone at least once or twice already just since I've been brewing.  after something like this falls out I kind of assume it's because it didn't really have the impact people were hoping it would.  how do you know what to attribute certain flavors to in the finished product?  are you comparing batches with and without mash hops?  or maybe trying a beer with only mash hop additions?

 

I could be wrong but this is for mash hopping with phantasm powder and (or at least) a yeast that pushes out the thiols.



#12 positiveContact

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Posted 07 February 2023 - 09:05 AM

I could be wrong but this is for mash hopping with phantasm powder and (or at least) a yeast that pushes out the thiols.

 

oh, sorry if that's the case.  I thought we were just talking about leaf or pellet hops.



#13 denny

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Posted 07 February 2023 - 12:24 PM

I have used quite a few. Cascade, mosaic, galaxy, saaz, huell melon, hallertau blanc, calypso, nugget, strata, citra, comet... More than that, I just don’t remember off hand.

Some work better than others. So far my takeaway has been to save expensive, sexy varieties for dry hop. Another consideration is to limit AA% in the mash, due to ~30% of them being the same as a 60 min addition. Nugget has great mash hop character, but is a bit higher in alphas, so it’s something to keep in mind. You can go nuts with cheap low alpha hops tho.

You don’t get traditional varietal characteristics from these either. The bitterness is whatever. Just like anything else. Yeah yeah yeah, someone out there can tell the difference between chinook for bittering vs magnum vs whatever. Personally, I can’t tell, maybe I could in a perfect trial but alpha is alpha.

Cascade mash hop doesn’t taste like cascade dry hops tho. It’s more pineapple, mango, guava than tangerine/Ruby red/pine.

It’s been a great experience learning how these hops that I have been familiar with for so long used a certain way do one thing I expect, but used differently has a wildly different impact to the final beer

Dr. Laura Burms from Omega and Jos Ruffell both highly recommended Saaz as a mash hop



#14 Genesee Ted

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Posted 08 February 2023 - 09:04 AM

I could be wrong but this is for mash hopping with phantasm powder and (or at least) a yeast that pushes out the thiols.

Yeah you need to use one of the thiolized yeasts from Omega or Berkeley. Berkeley says Thiol Boost only works with their thiolized strains but I have only used it with their London Tropics, which is a great strain. I like it better than Cosmic Punch but CP is also pretty damned good.

The character is unmistakable but you can be as subtle or forward as you like.

#15 Genesee Ted

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Posted 08 February 2023 - 09:07 AM

Dr. Laura Burms from Omega and Jos Ruffell both highly recommended Saaz as a mash hop

My experience concurs. I have tried all sorts of amounts, but I generally have settled on about a pound per bbl.

#16 denny

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Posted 08 February 2023 - 12:46 PM

My experience concurs. I have tried all sorts of amounts, but I generally have settled on about a pound per bbl.

That's right in line with what they told me



#17 zymot

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Posted 16 February 2023 - 02:42 AM

I have never done a mash hop. I always assumed it would be something akin to a first wort hop addition with some of your hop goodness being wasted in being absorbed in the wet portion of the mash.

#18 Genesee Ted

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Posted 16 February 2023 - 12:34 PM

I have never done a mash hop. I always assumed it would be something akin to a first wort hop addition with some of your hop goodness being wasted in being absorbed in the wet portion of the mash.

In general it is. But the mash temperatures release thiol precursors which will biotransform with these certain modified yeasts, which are pretty new, so it has sort of had a resurgence as of late.


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